Having only played a few adventures in both DH and RT I'm not super familiar with the setting. I'm wondering about what is considered the status-quo?

In a few threads I've read, people have said that Humans have the advantage over CSM's because they blend in. In that regard, is there a difference between a SM and a human wearing any type of power armour? Is light power armour less obvious? Can CSM take their power armour off?

How common is power armour? I know that in a low-tech civilization it sticks out, but what about on space stations and high tech civilizations?

Regarding Chaos and mutations, how long can a party do infiltration-type adventures? Eventually, even the humans are going to have extra limbs and organs hanging out all over. It seems it'd be hard to blend in any situation.

Our group is planning to play in the Calixis Sector instead of the Screaming Vortex so I'm wondering how this is going to work.

a mortal in power armour will stand out more in a crowd but not as much as a CSM as the chaos amrine is a lot bigger due to his gene manipulation and there equipment is bigger too to compensate for there bulk

While I'm asking about setting, can anyone recommend any novels?

Dunno it exactly, but as I see it, suits for normal humans are even rarer than those crafted for the Adeptus Astartes or Sorroritas (who are in demand of constant supplies). No Imperial organisation other than the aforementioned uses them in large quantities and considering the overall vastness of the Imperium even these quantities are small.. The Inquisition has some, some extremely wealthy individuals may posess a suit and that´s it. For a heretic it might be easier to have dark mechanicus (assuming you find one and can set up a deal) craft one for him, than finding an existing suit.

That´s my take on it.

Established lore about PA for normal humans (other than suits for normal humans exist) is pretty much nonexistent afaik.

@moepp

Dunno it exactly, but as I see it, suits for normal humans are even rarer than those crafted for the Adeptus Astartes or Sorroritas (who are in demand of constant supplies). No Imperial organisation other than the aforementioned uses them in large quantities and considering the overall vastness of the Imperium even these quantities are small.. The Inquisition has some, some extremely wealthy individuals may posess a suit and that´s it.

Your last sentence is the important part. "Some extremely wealthy individuals". Would you say that the average imperial world has at least two of those? If so, there are already twice as many mortal PA users than Astartes.

@Lecram

In a few threads I've read, people have said that Humans have the advantage over CSM's because they blend in. In that regard, is there a difference between a SM and a human wearing any type of power armour? Is light power armour less obvious? Can CSM take their power armour off?

There is both a difference between CSMs and mortals in Power Armour and out of it. CSM PA is generally bulkier (and usually pretty obvious with all the horns, spikes, blades and stars).

How common is power armour? I know that in a low-tech civilization it sticks out, but what about on space stations and high tech civilizations?

Power Armour is pretty rare (between "very rare" and "extremely rare", to be precise ) everywhere. Nobility, the Adepta of the Imperium and those sponsored by them are the only ones who can afford the armour - and excepting the Sororitas, almost noone will put on the armour if he isn't directly marching to battle.

Regarding Chaos and mutations, how long can a party do infiltration-type adventures? Eventually, even the humans are going to have extra limbs and organs hanging out all over. It seems it'd be hard to blend in any situation.

Depends on how you interpret the rules. As long as you don't receive a mutation for a failure, you've got a certain amount of control over it. Combine that with rerolling the mutation if you're unaligned and you've got relatively good chances to stay presentable. Further, the book talks about the possibility of praying and enacting rituals to reverse certain Gifts (page 292).

All in all, chances are that sooner or later (or right from the start, if you have CSMs with you), only part of the warband will remain capable of interacting with Imperial society.

with the books a good starting place would be the horus heresy series as this tells how they came about and for more ideas look at the nightlord, dark apostle and storm of iron books for csm and for mortals i'm not sure though dan abnetts gaunt series has plenty of chaos foes but shown from imperial side for just good reads any of the books in black librairy excepitng imo gav thorpe (i've not enjoyed any of hs books)

Cifer said:

Yeah, I kind of get that it would be a "very rare" occurance to see someone in Power Armour, but that's kind of what I'm getting at as well. Just because you own a suit of armour...any armour for that matter, people aren't necessarily walking around in it? Or is it common to see people decked out in full battle regalia?

In RT we wandered around in our armour all the time, which seemed a bit cheesy to me...

@Drake56 Thanks, I'll have a look!

Classic 40k answer: "It depends".

The Imperium is a society with a huge fetish for everything military and expensive. If you're wearing a battered carapace to a banquet, yes, that's not a bright idea. However, if that carapace is gilded, decorated with devotional scenes and bedecked with your hard-won medals and purity seals, that's another matter entirely.

That being said, although most power armours are works of art, they're generally still clumsy enough that you really don't want to wear them when not in the field (Space Marines excepted).

I´m probably a bit of a hardliner when it comes to that, but obtaining a PA is not solely wealth dependant. You also need connections to someone who can make/sell you one and I think that´s the even harder part.

It´s pure imagination because there´s no established lore about it. I don´t think it´s like they mass produce those things and sell em in a store for anyone who can afford them. I believe that access to PA in the imperium is rigorously restricted, as in not available on the free market. And that wealthy individuals might be able to buy a suit if they know someone who knows someone and so on.

Even with all the FFG games it´s hard to tell because you never play an ordinary person. In DH you´re inquisitorial acolytes, in RT you´re Rouge Traders and all of em have or might have privileges way above and beyond those of some noble or whatnot.

A heretic in the vortex is again entirely different. They got totally different sources. But I figure the price for a suit is outrageous.

In the end it´s all dependent on how available the GM makes them, there is no official status quo.

@moepp

Considering that the beginning of DH is very stingy with giving out stuff purely due to your status as an acolyte and does not in any way mention that PA is restricted (as it does, for example, with the Angelus boltgun or Executioner ammo or several other things)... is there any indication that the standard PA can not be obtained by traveling to the next place with a high enough tech level, convincing the AdMech that you're going to take good care of it and forking over the cold hard thrones (or alternatively finding someone who already has a suit and making him an offer)?

Yes, you can't just buy a suit at the next convenience store. That's why the PA has an availability of Very Rare or Extremely Rare listed. If you can roll that with your Inquiry/Influence/Profit/Infamy, you can locate and possibly even buy a suit.

As for canon... take a look at Necromunda. Spyrers routinely obtain non-imperial suits. Those seem to be in a grey area of law (technically illegal, since they're probably xeno-tech, but since they're used by nobles for hunting down gangers... who cares?), so I don't see why proper imperial ones shouldn't be entirely legit.

The Spyrers are actually said to use Tau Tech....

Cifer said:

Yes, and here´s where things start to get interesting. What do you do? Bribe someone (with a guarantee that that someone is successful?)? Offer technology they might be interested in? Give them coordinates of derelict ship they might want to investigate? All that is quite above and beyond mere shopping. Having something the AdMech wants ain´t peanuts.

I´m not saying it´s impossible, but it deffinetly is more arduous than just grabbing it at some vendor. Sure if you only need to roll availability and get it just like that, you can get it at the grocery around the corner assuming you roll good enough.

Yes DH is very stringy about such things but there´s no way around the fact that players play an individual that is part of Inquisition, an organisation with access to the best of the best stuff the Imperium has to offer.

An availability roll isn´t all there´s to it imo.

But everyone can handle that as he/she likes.

Lecram said:

CSMs can take their power armour off. There is some debate about wether or not a CSM is immediately recognizable wwithout armour on. Many say yes, due to their much larger size and mass and general super-human-ness, but I disagree. Keeping in mind that genetic manipulation and surgical alteration are commonplace on 'baseline' Imperial worlds, and that the 'million worlds' of the imperium produce a greater variety of ethnic types than our real world (the members of House Goliath on Necromunda are a good example), and that the overwelming majority of Imperial citizens have never actually seen an Astartes, or heard that some of these near-legendary beings turned to Chaos, I don't think that an unarmoured CSM would arouse too much attention on a world with a busy spaceport and a lot of off-world traffic. Certainly, they will never be inconspicuous; they will stand out in a crowd, and never be able to pass for a generic storekeeper or somesuch, but I think they could certainly claim to be a gene-modified bodyguard or a mercenary from a high-gravity world...

Adeptus-B said:

Thanks. Good insight.

@moepp

Yes, and here´s where things start to get interesting. What do you do? Bribe someone (with a guarantee that that someone is successful?)? Offer technology they might be interested in? Give them coordinates of derelict ship they might want to investigate? All that is quite above and beyond mere shopping. Having something the AdMech wants ain´t peanuts.

In the most basic form, handing over 15000 thrones should convince them. Should you not also have a techpriest on retainer, asking them to train you a tech-adept that you can hire specifically to take care of the suit might help as well.

@Adeptus-B

Many say yes, due to their much larger size and mass and general super-human-ness, but I disagree.

"Many" in this case includes the rulebook.

Before mutations and what-not, while a space marine might stick out on a Emperial space station, would they just be assumed to be Space Marines or is there an obvious difference between the regular SM vs CSM?

Most SM are attached to a unit of some sort? are they likely to be questionned?

@Lecram

Before mutations and what-not, while a space marine might stick out on a Emperial space station, would they just be assumed to be Space Marines or is there an obvious difference between the regular SM vs CSM?

Assuming the CSM goes easy on the eight-pointed star tattoos, hasn't already got some minor mutations due to his gene-seed being corrupted from the thousands of years immersion in the warp and uses loyalist armour rather than the usual fangs-and-spikes motif, there's no obvious physical difference.

Most SM are attached to a unit of some sort? are they likely to be questionned?

For most imperial citizens, Space Marines are the Emepror's Angels of Death and meeting them is like meeting a living saint. Whatever he says is going to be accepted as the holy truth from the mouth of the Emperor himself.
The problem starts when word gets to anyone who knows anything about SMs and/or CSMs - as you already guessed, the overwhelming majority of SMs travel within their own chapters from battlefield to battlefield, meaning a lonely Space Marine appearing unannounced without a known purpose does raise suspicion. And the Imperium loves its suspicion. Thus, the most probable result would sooner or later be a discreet genescan, which would reveal the massive amount of corruption.
Cue the Inquisition.

All Sm wear badges of honor, chapter insigna, etc.

CSM chapters are know and feared, killed on sight. So the CSM would have to hide is trappings and most/all the CSm armors are heresy pattern and suffering warp distortion which are a dead give away. (I.e. Chaos symbol appear at random on the armor, when exposed to the warp the helmet will take a deamonic shape, etc. he could wear a loyalist armor but then the spirit machine will revolt, or at least will have to be corrupted, etc.

Should the CSm pretend to be a SM returning form the Warp, the inquisition will seas him and do a torrow brain scan and interrogation to insure is integrity, should he survive that, Dark Angels may do a back ground check on him to see if he is a fallen one and there is a panoply of other orders who will try to gain knowledge to try and use the SM, anyone will try to use in the Empire.

This is not a rule per say, but as been often described in the Chaos fluff and the 13th Wolfen legion also...

Asthropath and any other sanctioned psyker will probably go very touchy around a touched CSM, since they are very attuned to corruption, etc.

P.s. since there are countless number of worlds in the Empire, most worlds won't have a full fledge inquisitor, let alone SM, etc so he will be abel to hide for a good while or do some damage before anyone shows up....

crisaron said:

The horus Heresy and the fact that space marines can turn renegade is NOT general knowlegde. The average citizen of the Imperium lives in blissful ignorance of the fact that some of the angels of the emperor has turned traitors. This is proscribed knowledge, like the existence of daemons, and only those of sufficient rank and station knows this.

Ordinary soldiers, enforcers and customsofficers knows nothing about the difference between a black legionairre or a black templar, until the legionairre starts pumping bolt shells into him and his comrades, or a commanding officer that somehow knows about the traitor legions/renegades gives him orders to shoot first.

This knowlegde usually comes from the likes of generals or inquisitors, people deemed important enough that it becomes practical to keep them in the know-how.

Even without knowing squat about Chaos, even the dimmest Guard will figure out that a Plague Marine (or a Noise Marine) aren't exactly kosher. That's more debatable for a Khornite which looks a bit more mainstream. But in general, the empire doesn't go for the 'spikes, skulls, scars and tattoos' look favored amongst chaos follower.

Mutations are another possible giveaway - seeing a Space Marine with a tentacle in place of an arme, or a bolter that's fused to it's arm with a nasty intermingling of flesh and metal will probably give the average Guard pause. Or at least a 'WTF moment'. Which won't do much to improvbe his life expectancy, but will make manipulatign him a bit more difficult.

That's true, but only the dimmest chaos space marines tries to "infiltrate" imperial societey in full bondage fear. It's entirely possible to make yourself look like a loyalist if you're a traitor astartes. You could even keep your original legion markings and 99.9% of the populace would believe that you're a loyalist.

mutations, and being a member of the Death Guard will of course make this next to impossible, but those so afflicted will probaly concern themselves less with passing for a loyal astartes than just causing plain havoc on the imperium.

About Alpha Legion from Lexicanum

The Legion also made a habit of recruiting non-Astartes specialists in every theatre and campaign they entered, commonly members of the Imperial armed forces, though almost any human could be approached by the Legion for his knowledge or skills. These operatives often remained in their original position, ready to respond to Alpha Legion commands. Compromised operatives were not discarded if it could be avoided, and Alpha Legionaries would go to great lengths to retain them or hide their existence, lengths that included the fatal silencing of other Imperials. Operatives were tattooed with a small hydra symbol.

Whilst known to have possessed Terminator and 'stealth' squads (who appear to have worn blackened or dulled armour), the majority of the Legion appears to have armed and equipped themselves in a similar fashion unless tactically imprudent. The Alpha Legion were known to operate behind enemy lines and even mingle with enemy civilian populations. In such situations they were apparently able to pass unnoticed with a combination of appropriate dress and psyker mind-clouding.2

Me and my group assumed for the sake of good game that If SM or Mortal won't look like chaos worshipers they are assumed loyalists. I'm going to infiltrate calixis with 2 Alpha marines who would pretend to be loyalist by painting armour, removing marks etc. If your CSM have deceive (which is also for disguise) they should have chance to go to imperial world and don't be shoot on sight. Other thing is CSM without armour. In DW we see that normal marine have approximately 2.1 m, but they can be taller or shorter. In right disguise they can look like huge brutes and they will attract as much attention as any other huge dangerous brute.

But in your game you can assume that it isn't true. But good luck playing games when mortals would infiltrate hive world and your CSM would sit in cave and wait for some action.

It would be possible for a CSM to disguise himself in order to infiltrate human society, though he'd probably need some humans around to act as facemen. It wouldn't be too hard to make him appear to be some kind of combat-freak servant, a gene-genered bio-warrior or the like. Hell, you could disguise him as a combat-servitor. You'd have to lose the power armour however.

Pretending to be a loyalist would also be possible, but would attract its own problems. The biggest of these would be attention. The arrival of even one loyalist SM to a planet would attract the notice of every authority figure on the planet. The governor will expect you to come visit and explain your presence and everyone will be trying to figure out what you're up to. While that can be beneficial, it also makes it nigh impossible to do any covert work. And pity on you if there's an Inquisitor on the planet - he will hear about it and he will investigate.

These guys are Imperial citizens, bred for hard labor over several centuries, and not unarmoured CSMs...

Adeptus-B said:

Not to mention, totaly Badass!