In Shadowrun, our group had an expression for the combat monster that could do nothing except fight: "the troll in the van".

If a GM in BC chooses to go with the rule book that CSMs are immediately recognizable and unable to disguise their origins, it pretty much leaves all CSMs as nothing more then trolls hiding in the van until their "special" skill set is required.

Obviously, this depends a lot on what kind of game you're running. If its action heavy, in neutral or chaos territory, it will rarely be a problem. But if there is going to be any roleplaying involved, it can quickly get tedious for the CSMs. Some might say that's the price you pay for playing a combat monster, but I don't think that's entirely fair. The game includes 8 archetypes, and while there is no doubt that the Apostate is the "face", 50% of the available archetypes shouldn't be forced into hiding in a cave or convenient vehicle anytime interactions with civilians occur.

Every GM decides how he wants to run his game, but I do think its a weakness and another hindrance to mixed group play. It may be in accordance with the setting, but it still acts as a restriction to roleplaying...something I am not a fan of. It works fine in DW because all play marines, but there is still enough interaction both among the battle brothers and with civilians that it works out. In BC its just another block for mixed group play, in my opinion.

Currently, our RT group is still going strong so we're only adapting the combat updates, along with the modified talents and skills. But if we ever do start up a BC campaign the way I hope, I doubt I will be too harsh on any players wanting to be CSMs. Oh, they'll never be liars extra-ordinaire or firebrand orators able to whip up a crowd, but they will be able to stand around looking hulking and mean without it immediately raising suspicions.

In my games, an unarmoured marine would draw the same attention that a 2.10 - 2.30m tall bodybuilder would draw. Everyone whos sees them will notice them and probably be either impressed, frightened or disgusted, but they wont think of calling the local authorities just because a mountain of muscle walks down the streets.

People will have no problems describing them when someone questions them about the hulking brutes that went into that bar earlier...

The game includes 8 archetypes, and while there is no doubt that the Apostate is the "face", 50% of the available archetypes shouldn't be forced into hiding in a cave or convenient vehicle anytime interactions with civilians occur.

Just because the game presents multiple options doesn't mean all options are equally good in all circumstances. Just like a guy playing an Ork or Kroot in RT, a guy playing a CSM in Imperial space is screwed out of many group activities, and that's totally OK if the player had a clear idea of what he's getting into.

Oh, they'll never be liars extra-ordinaire (...)

Sindri?

(...)or firebrand orators able to whip up a crowd (...)

Champion?

Just because the game presents multiple options doesn't mean all options are equally good in all circumstances. Just like a guy playing an Ork or Kroot in RT, a guy playing a CSM in Imperial space is screwed out of many group activities, and that's totally OK if the player had a clear idea of what he's getting into.

That's not quite a perfect comparison though. Kroot and Orks are presented with sizable disclaimers concerning their disruptive nature and they're an optional addition granted 30ish pages in a supplement. The CSM, however, are introduced in the core book, they share almost everything but archetypes with humans and the base game is one that allows both.

Furthermore, most importantly, the Ork and Kroot players are NOT screwed out of many group activities. Being under the employ of a RT, they are under his protection, and can thus gladly follow the RT to any party, public forum or event he cares to have them with him for. He might get some social flak, certainly, but he's an RT! He's not only allowed but expected to shun social conventions and flaunt his superstar status as a mercantile rockstar in space. Now most RT's are content to do so with extravagant dress and the occasional xeno blade at their hip, but some go that extra mile. It's weird, but it's not a game halting problem.

A CSM in a game where he is, somehow instantly identifiable as a space marine becomes an active hindrance. He is simply banned from any sort of infiltrate the Imperium or imperial society game or plot due to being a walking breach of stealth and an instant attractor of inquisitorial attention.

So while it's true that not all options presented ought to be equally good, it's bad game design if 50% of the options presented utterly exclude those who take them from participating in significant parts of the entire game. Especially the parts the other 50% are meant to excel at!

I have to chime in here and note that I think that it is stupid to lump regular humans together with space marines in any way, fashion, or form, when presented with any single premise or scenario. They are not on the same "level", they do not work the same way, they are substantially different, and expecting the two to mesh well together in a group game is a silly idea.

Morangias said:

SIIINDRIIIIIIIIII!

Also, with the way mutations work in BC, its pretty easy to loose the infiltration aspect of a character.

Reaching 10 or 20 Corruption is pretty easy, and a lot of the unaligned mutations are very visible.

In a warband with a Human Renegade aka Snake Guy (Animal Hybrid Mutation), and Human Psyker with big Wings (Winged Mutation) the CSM is still the "normal" one

@Whizzer

Take a look at page 292. Players with a somewhat understanding GM have a good chance at retaining their good (or at least non-chaotic) looks if they're willing to work for it.

@ReverendMort

Furthermore, most importantly, the Ork and Kroot players are NOT screwed out of many group activities. Being under the employ of a RT, they are under his protection, and can thus gladly follow the RT to any party, public forum or event he cares to have them with him for. He might get some social flak, certainly, but he's an RT! He's not only allowed but expected to shun social conventions and flaunt his superstar status as a mercantile rockstar in space. Now most RT's are content to do so with extravagant dress and the occasional xeno blade at their hip, but some go that extra mile. It's weird, but it's not a game halting problem.

As long as the Kroot and the Ork aren't sanctioned, they're still dead meat if they leave the RT's ship while within the Imperium.

@Bladehate

It's funny that you mention Shadowrun, as that's among the games with the strongest party segregation parts I've yet seen - there's not just the troll in the van, there's also the entire group outside the Matrix (except for the decker) and in the physical realm (except for the projecting mage).

@fgdsfg

I have to chime in here and note that I think that it is stupid to lump regular humans together with space marines in any way, fashion, or form, when presented with any single premise or scenario. They are not on the same "level", they do not work the same way, they are substantially different, and expecting the two to mesh well together in a group game is a silly idea.

Oh, it does work - exactly as long as the game is skewed neither in the infiltrating/social nor the action/combat direction. In a more or less balanced campaign (that is preferably not located permanently in imperial space and does not sport combat on the 1km*1km featureless plain), it seems both character types are quite capable of working together and being useful.

Cifer said:

So this exactly goes back to my original question. Is playing BC in the Calixis system a bad idea? Obviously it'd be easier to play in the Screaming Vortex, but we kind of wanted to bump heads with the Imperium...play the bad guy for once. That kind of gets lost in the Screaming Vortex.

I guess we'd just stick to taking non-imperial planets...or very isolated Imperial planets and playing the part of pirates...

@ Adeptus-B

So that's the common laboror? Sporting bolters? Maybe those aren't bolters...I guess what I'm asking is it standard that people are walking around armed? We covered armour already and I know the answer is probably "depends". Like on local laws etc.. But lets say an emperial controlled space station.

I'm going to look into those books that were recommended to get a feel for the setting; I just haven't gotten around to getting them yet...

@Lecram

So this exactly goes back to my original question. Is playing BC in the Calixis system a bad idea? Obviously it'd be easier to play in the Screaming Vortex, but we kind of wanted to bump heads with the Imperium...play the bad guy for once. That kind of gets lost in the Screaming Vortex..

Playing BC in the Calixis sector is a bad idea if

-you want a social-interaction-heavy game

-you have CSM players

-these players are not content with at least medium amounts of time where they probably can't do very much outside for example the Underhive

By the way: A possible alternative would be for the CSM players to take the Minion talent, get a human minion and play that in situations where CSMs would be inappropriate. As long as they can maintain vox contact with the CSMs, it's even entirely by the rules to have the minions puppeteered by the CSM players. (Though you probably should tweak the minion rules to promote low-trait high-ability minions like common humans would be)

Cifer said:

You make it sound like every chaos marine, in armour or not, will be instantly recognized and shot on sight once they step foot on an imperial planet. What background based evidence do you have to support your claims?

I'd say that an unarmoured and unmutated chaos space marine would have a good chance to blend into imperial society, heck there are official sources claiming it can be done (some fallen angels have taken shelter amongst civilian communities, successfully hiding their true identities). Sure he will stand out in the crowd, like anybody who is a head taller than most and bulit like Schwarzenegger in his prime would, but they wouldn't be recognized as space marines.... necessarily.

what you are doing here, isnt just forcing your opinions and views on the matter on other people and telling them that you speak the absolute truth. You're also telling them that playing the game how they want is wrong, and I have a problem with that.

Lecram said:

Goliaths aren't exactly common laborers, but they do represent one bizzare "ethnic type" produced within the Imperium.

-And walking around armed on an Imperial world will likely be a problem for every PC, not just "disguised" CSMs. I don't know if there are any hard-and-fast rules covering gun ownership in the Imperium (maybe in the new Book of Judgement , which I don't own yet). I play it as members of the Adeptus have the right to own weapons and use them in self-defence, unless they are banned outright on a specific world; non-Adeptus must get a (difficult-to-aquire) liscense to carry weapons- fake I.D.s of said liscenses fetch top prices. And of course there are places where guns are carried openly in casual violation of the law- the Mos Eisley-esque Port Suffering on Iocanthos, or the lawless space station 41 Pry are two examples from the Calixis Sector.

@Cifer, Yeah, and that's one of the things that I really, REALLY didn't like about SR. There were times where the entire group could spend hours just sitting and staring at the mage doing his astral thing or the decker. Especially when they released expanded rules and options for these side activities, which drastically increased the time such activities could take if used. I just picked the troll combat monster as the most appropriate example when compared to the CSM in a social game. And because "troll in the van" always makes me laugh...except when I'm the troll =(.

In any event, I don't think the Kroot/Ork argument is completely appropriate. Yes, they cannot independently go sleuthing on an Imperial world, but that's the kind of activity that should really be handled by a few quick dice rolls by the Seneschal anyway, eating up a minimum of group time. For almost all group relevant activities, the Ork/Kroot have the option to be present without much of a hitch. The setting allows it.

Now in BC, if the setting takes place in the Vortex, then a mixed warband isn't much of a problem. But as many have pointed out, a great deal of fun can be had by playing the bad guy in a familiar, Imperial setting. If that's the kind of campaign you want to run, you almost have to warn your players ahead of time that CSMs just aren't a viable choice for a character. I think that's kind of a shame, to the extent that I would allow CSMs to appear like vat-muscled thugs without too much of a problem. That way the characters can still be present, still have an impact and still feel involved, even if that involvement is to just stand around looking menacing. There is a big difference between being present and knowing you can do something and being forced to hide yourself for much of a campaign. The minion idea is also valid, but unless you let the CSM basically make a normal human character it likely won't be much fun. Still an option tho.

@Morangia,

Sindri functioned in a chaotic, action oriented setting (planetary invasion type stuff). As I said, in an action heavy campaign the CSM's identity as such won't be as much of a problem for the player. Even if there is RPing, he's much more likely to be able to interact or at the least be present in such a campaign.

A Champion is somewhat similar. Obviously he can be a firebrand orator and a great RPer, when it comes to his warband or fellow chaos guys. In an action heavy campaign in neutral territory he functions perfectly. In an infiltration type campaign in imperial space, he really has no place. He certainly can't whip up a crowd against imperial oppression, though he could probably terrify the crap out of them...

Again, I think that's a shame. And while the rules and setting info completely support Cifer and other hardliners, I wouldn't hesitate to accomodate my players if they wanted a mixed group in a more social campaign taking place in imperial space. I don't believe in letting my players completely walk all over rules or setting, but if a few minor points are a hindrance to the group playing a particular kind of game then I don't really have a problem changing them. Especially if I as a GM really want to run an infiltration/insurgency type of game, but I have a couple of players that REALLY want to be CSMs. Of course my players will be warned it won't be optimal, but I certainly wouldn't punish them with threats of death and Inquisitorial involvement everytime they turn around.

Purely my opinion and style of GMing, and to each his own. Personally after having gamed and GMed for more then 18 years, my viewpoint has changed a great deal from my first few steps into the RPG world. Back then rules were rules and damnit, things were there to be obeyed. Now I'm much more relaxed about little details and follow one single rule: The game must be fun, for the GM and the players, or its pointless. Everyone has their own definitions of what fun is though, and many GMs...especially those steeped in WH40K lore...wouldn't dream of breaking the setting, even in small ways. As I said, to each their own.

@Jackal_Strain

You make it sound like every chaos marine, in armour or not, will be instantly recognized and shot on sight once they step foot on an imperial planet. What background based evidence do you have to support your claims?

How about the already mentioned page 49 of the game we're playing? "A Chaos Space Marine is generally incapable of blending in with human society."

That's it. Ignore it all you want (and that's entirely your right - that's what houserules are there for), but that's what the book says on the topic. The sky doesn't become any greener because you say "It's so unfair and fascist that it's blue!".

@Adeptus-B

-And walking around armed on an Imperial world will likely be a problem for every PC, not just "disguised" CSMs. I don't know if there are any hard-and-fast rules covering gun ownership in the Imperium (maybe in the new Book of Judgement, which I don't own yet). I play it as members of the Adeptus have the right to own weapons and use them in self-defence, unless they are banned outright on a specific world; non-Adeptus must get a (difficult-to-aquire) liscense to carry weapons- fake I.D.s of said liscenses fetch top prices. And of course there are places where guns are carried openly in casual violation of the law- the Mos Eisley-esque Port Suffering on Iocanthos, or the lawless space station 41 Pry are two examples from the Calixis Sector.

According to one of the first published DH adventures, Hive Sibellus allows firearms for all citizens, but is understandably stricter about anything that could be used for killing multiple people at once, like grenades. And let's just not talk about Gunmetal City...

@Bladehate

In any event, I don't think the Kroot/Ork argument is completely appropriate. Yes, they cannot independently go sleuthing on an Imperial world, but that's the kind of activity that should really be handled by a few quick dice rolls by the Seneschal anyway, eating up a minimum of group time. For almost all group relevant activities, the Ork/Kroot have the option to be present without much of a hitch. The setting allows it.

I was talking about group-relevant activities. Kroot and Orks without the Sanctioned Xeno talent, in whatever company, are dead meat once they step into any imperial place that the Rogue Trader can't dominate entirely.

As for the minion idea, I'd prefer using the (tweaked) minion rules - after all, the player still has his normal CSM character in addition to the human one, so some trade-off should be involved.

Fgdsfg said:

I kinda disagree.

I don´t see much of a difference between CSM and human vs heavily armoured and armed warrior and other classes in some fantasy RPG. The only sort of "unique" difficulty is blending into imperial society. As long as that isn´t a constant requirement I don´t see much of a problem.

Our group consists of a heretek, a psyker, a renegade, a chosen and a forsaken. We´re only one session into the game but so far it went very well. Everyone had his/her moments to shine. The CSM obviously in combat, as did the renegade (excellent sniper support from his long las).

The heretek had lots of technical obstacles to overcome (we where on a ship, no not broken chains though inspired by it), and even saved my characters live as he was overriding a sequence that would open the hangar bay doors (to the void), whilst battling some internal security routines hellbent on locking him out of the system. Thanks to his efforts, my char could escape the threatened area in time. Plus a ship is a nice place to be for a tech geek^^.

The psyker could do a lot of mischief (useful aswell as fun), and had his own "psy-scientific" discoveries to make. Everyone was pretty satisfied by the experience so far. And next to combat, players are trying to branch out into other fields of interest.

I think, you need to tailor the plot to the group, not the other way around I guess. In BC mayhaps more so than in other RPG´s but it´s too early for me to judge.

I think it's possible given the size of the galaxy to get away with a heavy robe (Dark Angel style) over your power armour and just glare down anyone who asks awkward questions. Sure, if you develop an extra pair of legs by the will of the gods that'll be a little tougher to deal with, but them's the breaks when you work for the Ruinous Powers. Alternatively, ditch the armour until its needed and just claim to be from a world where they breed 'em big.

It's also a fair point made in the rulebook that "Black Crusade takes place in and around the Screaming Vortex". If you intend to take a Chaos Marine near the followers of the corpse-god, plan ahead.

The text on page 49 about space marines being entirely unable to blend into human society is both going against what has been written before and a huge oversimplification.

I can't remember the exact issue, since I keep all my old white dwarf magazines at my parents house, but there was an article that said that not all fallen angels kept on fighting as space marines, regnegades or misunderstood loyalists. Some sought refuge in the wilderness, living out their days in solitude, some wandered the galaxy, and some found their way back into human societies, succesfully blending in.

I agree that wearing legion power armour makes it impossible to blend in, but if you put some heavy robes on and keep a stooped posture, your chances of walking the streets uninterrupted are pretty high imo. It will of course vary from planet to planet.

I suspect that the text on page 49 has been written so that human heretics will have their own area of operation, that marines simply can't intrude upon, but it seems forced and unnatural to me.

@Jackal_Strain

There are both sources that are in favour of Marines infiltrating and against it - the Horus Heresy novels for example generally take pains to explain that no, Space Marines look decidedly not human . I'm keeping to what's written in the rulebook, just like when it comes to Astartes vs. Mortal boltguns and female Marines.

Cifer said:

I don't think we are ignoring it, just interpreting it. "-generally incapable of blending in-" can mean anything from "Kill him on sight!" to "That big guy probably ain't from around here- if he's an Off-worlder we can really gouge him on prices!". Frankly, if FFG intended that statement to mean only the former, I think they would have worded it more forcefully.

An Astartes will never look nondescript or dissappear in to crowd, but then, neither will a Sumo wrestler on the streets of Japan; and the "million worlds" of the Imperium produce far more diversity than our single planet...

I think the best thing to do would be to talk with your group before setting forth, and decide what everyone's happy with to represent the idea mix of playable game and realistic world. Be open. Be fair. Be true to your group's shared vision of 40k.

Adeptus-B said:

Exactly! There's a big difference between looking a little (or a lot) off and being instantly recognized as a chaos marine. Besides, most citizens of the imperium would have no idea that the 2.3m tall muscle monster standing before them is a marine at all. The probable reaction of most would be to keep away from the big guy and get on with their day. On most worlds in the imperium, minding your own business is the best way of staying alive, or at least out of a cell in the local enforcer stronghold.

A marine wouldn't have to worry about every single person on an imperial world while undercover, mainly the ones who might have some reason for sticking their nose in other peoples business and those extremely few who might have an idea about what or who they are as long as they keep their public actions pretty low-key.

Do most planets retain most of their culture? Like, I assume if the emperium wanted to colonize our planet (you know, the OTHER Earth), our method of dressing and what-not would stick around for a while. Anyone in "Imperium dress" -whatever that is; all goth and 4 in armour - would be identified as being off worlders. They'd be likely part of whatever outposts had been set up, like military or mining/forestry etc...

So, in that respect, you could be super low-key and look like a local, or just regular low-key and look like an off-worlder who's colonizing. So, while a Space Marine could never get away with looking like a local because of his brute size, the locals wouldn't really look suspiciously at a space marine(out of his PA) because they'd just assume he's one of the colonists/invaders. The SM would just have to watch his step around other off-worlders.

Meanwhile the other humans like the renegade and apostate could just fit in however they like assuming they learn about the culture...and don't have mutations. Although, locals might be so clueless and scared Sh**less that they'd just assume it's what happens when you live in space too long. Or maybe they'd report it to the closest Arbites.

The longer a planet is in the fold, the more it gets synthesized, but it seems to me the local populace would still be fairly clueless.

Sorry if I'm asking questions that should be obvious, but I've only really played the setting for a handful of sessions.

There is no "imperial" culture. The Imperium is more like a superstructure than a single monolithic body. In most cases, it will be content to let conquered worlds live on just as before provided they venerate the Emperor, don't deal with aliens, send their psykers to the black ships to be sanctioned and provide anything the Imperium asks for (generally ressources and men to wage further wars with). There are planets that get interfered with further, like major garrison worlds or sector capitals, but for an average world like ours, the only thing that changes for the common man would be the religion.

So, in that respect, you could be super low-key and look like a local, or just regular low-key and look like an off-worlder who's colonizing. So, while a Space Marine could never get away with looking like a local because of his brute size, the locals wouldn't really look suspiciously at a space marine(out of his PA) because they'd just assume he's one of the colonists/invaders. The SM would just have to watch his step around other off-worlders.

Since the Imperium is pretty big on its strict pure-humans-only policy, I'd say most people would rather assume Space Marines (unless recognizable as Space Marines, in which case they'd be venerated as living saints) are some kind of mutants than off-worlders.

Cifer said:

I was also talking about group relevant activities.

And unless you're playing a slightly unusual RT campaign, 95% of the campaign will be taking place in a setting that won't be a hindrance to Xenos characters, where they can fully participate in and aid in the group's endeavors.

As I've said elsewhere, if the setting takes place in the Vortex a mixed group faces no particular problems. The problems crop up when you want to run a social/insurgency/intrigue campaign in an imperial setting.

Oh, and you even said it yourself...there exists a Sanctioned Xenos talent, which pretty much allows a player to choose to play what he wants, regardless of the circumstances. No such talent exists for CSMs...

Bladehate said:

That CSM could be a black shield of the Deathwatch dispatched on a solo assignment. Not too many would really question this, and there's not really any good way to verify it outside of the Deathwatch.

That's an interesting option.

But sometimes being a Space Marine is almost as bad as a CSM when you just want to keep a low profile.

Creating a talent similar to Unremarkable but for CSMs might be a possible fix. It should allow a Marine or CSM to pass casual inspection, as the CSM has practiced at slouching, proper disguise, un-militant bearing, and hiding all those other small tell-tale give-aways that project what he is. Gene-scans, telepathy powers or even a close inspection by someone who knows what they are looking for would instantly reveal the truth of course. But it would give the CSM the option of blending in with most of human society without an instant hue and cry of alarm.

Again, the goal of the talent would be to allow a CSM to follow along with their fellow human PCs and have an immediate involvement in most of the group aspects of an infiltration/insurgency type of campaign, even if they themselves are rarely called upon to charm, seduce, deceive or fast-talk anyone...