Ok so I'm running a game of Rogue Trader with a Kroot Explorer and I've begun to get a tad bit at a loss for how to deal with his concealment.

He has the "Stalker" Kindred meaning he can make concealment checks as a free action and while being observed. He has unnatural agility, +20 Concealment, another +20 from a chameleon cloak, and a +10 from field craft giving him a total of about 96 and with the unnatural agility it means even if he rolls as high as a 96 he still has 2 degree's of success (though considering averages he tends to have 6 degree's of success).

This makes him **** nigh unspottable by anything and he abuses the living **** out of it (even out of combat he's almost always walking around concealed) considering he can fire from concealment (which I tell my playres reveals themselves) and then as a free action just hop back into it before the enemy ever gets to fire back. I don't know how to deal with this without doing one of two things:

1. Making an enemy with ungodly perception which just seems cheaps as a GM since as a player I can understand how you don't want your talents nullified just because the GM is annoyed (I just don't want him nigh invincible)

or

2. Have an enemy do a ready aciton single shot for as soon as he reveals himself (which again considering his high agility is usually pointless since he also has dodge +20, not to mention having to deal with the other hard hitters that can usually kill most whatever I through at them in no more than a few rounds).

So, thoughts on defeating just one more tad bit of munckining in my players party? I don't want to make it useless, just not make him feel **** nigh retarded invincible.

Note: One other question, concealment normally has to be used behind cover or something else that's obscuring correct? So does this apply to the kroot even though he has the Stalker ability? I know it says he can do concealment while observed but does this mean he can just do it out in the open (as we've been ruling) or does it mean he can simply duck behind a box while being observed but requires that box (or some other cover) to be there?

Going to keep this short: how do you hide in plain sight when people are observing you? You don't. Short of magic or an active cloaking device.

The 'even while being observed' thing is nice, but it does not allow him to walk around 'stealthed' in plain sight, he needs something to hide behind/in. That can be a bush, a ceiling plate, bundles of wires or even a person.

Standing in the middle of a well-lit corridor with nothing to hide behind/in? Dead kroot.

first off: don't forget area of effect weapons (blast or flame quality). He can hide, it'll still hurt him and with some luck it'll damage that cameleon cloak enough to render it useless. Cameleon cloaks aren't the most sturdy of materials so yeah, they can get damaged when targeted by the right kind of weapons.

Secondly: i'd rule that - yes - he can use it whilst being observed and without anything to hide behind due to the stalker trait. I'd see that as simply abusing the many problems with human perception, such as the one shown in the monkey experiment (google it) or using diversions (by tossing something that way or firing his gun or whatever), in combination with moving superfast and good equipment - such as a cameleon cloak. However: if done in such circumstances i'd go with serious penalties to the test. Yes, he can do it, but it'll still be very hard, punishing or hellish depending on the environment (long grasses or similar things, lighting, ...). Basically he's not magical as the previous poster pointed out. He's just damned good. And without the right equipment what he can do will be much more limited.

Exceptions would be for example if he's surrounded, then no it isn't possible no matter how good he is.

I'd compare it with an arch-militant or voidmaster with BS 70-80 (two of our players have that) before modifiers. Yeah they can hit most anything under normal conditions, but bad lighting, harsh weather, grenades detonating, cover (forcing called shots) and such more will all aid in making them a lot less certain to hit.

Rift said:

I'd say pretty much this.

Flamers, lots and lots of flamers.

For those asking you what the rational is for hiding in plain sight? The talent says you can *shrug* as for fluff reasoning the stalker talent states that it's a chameleon like effect.

The exact wording:

"Their skin ripples with colours and patterns that make them nearly invisible when they wish to hide". I was imagining a predator like effect when I read it as it seems to work given they have a good enough skill at concealment. I hadn't thought of flamers though (even though they seem obvious).

I think I'll continue to allow him to do it, but as a previous poster said apply penalties for not using some sort of cover to aid the effort.

3rding the blast and flame weapons. And if you want to be REALLY mean, there's a Blast AND flame weapon in Into the Storm. Melta Grenades are fun!

Dark Bunny Lord said:

The way the 'stlaker' talent works means the cameleonine cloak won't be of much help since it does exactly the same thign as the talent. The onlyefect would be to hide carreid equipment under it.

As some have already done, I'd also point ut that it's his unmodified chance for hiding - in bad conditions such as trying to hide in an empty room, don't be afraid to give some penalties to the check.

I'd also note that 96+ is an automatic fail, so even if he has the skill at that level, any roll of greater than 95 isn't going to work. But still: blast, flame, psykers (nothing your problem kroot has going for him is going to prove even remotely useful at hiding him from psychic senses, or a daemon's sight, or, for that matter, a Navigator's warp sight).

Hell, 'port in and convert some of the psychic powers from Dark Heresy: I guarantee he won't be expecting the blind man in green to be able to spot and shoot him as though from Point Blank Range (Divine Shot ftw). Even without that, any astropath will be able to see him clear as day, as they are explicitly noted as being completely blind, but always using their psychic abilities to see. Since nothing he has makes him psychically invisible...

Oh, and fun fact: a Navigator's Lidless Gaze power doesn't need the kroot to be visible for it to work on him. If there's a Navigator using that power for whatever reason, and the kroot either would be in the Nav's arc of sight or can draw a line of sight to the Navigator, then the Kroot can be affected, just like anyone else.

Manunancy said:

Aye, I'd say that if you are gonna allow it, that the cloak would actually take away from the attempt, since it's actively getting in the way of his own abilities. Either he uses one, or he uses the other - not both.

And yea, definitely give him penalties for doing it in the middle of a room with no cover, -40 would cover it I think, since even the "Predator" was fairly obvious when invisible when he wasn't in a place with lots of cover, and the effect got worse the closer to you he got.

IR Goggles should solve your problem.

And as was mentioned, I wouldn't allow the cloak to stack with the natural ability.

If he doesn't wear the cloak then he isn't invisible. He has the stalker trait, not his equipment. So if he blends in and his attire + equipment & weaponry don't he's still very visible. The cloak does pretty much the same as his trait, so it makes sense that he wears the cloak to hide his stuff. If all goes wrong he'll need to go invisible woman before she got the nice suit made by her loverboy (and suddenly sneaking up on people doesn't sound so attractive anymore, sneaking away more so).

However, i do agree it make sense to not give him the bonus of the cloak on top of the stalker bonus. They are pretty much the same deal. So one +20 ought to do it.

I'm having a bit of an issue with justifying nixing the cloak though as taking it away would make him weaker at concealment (which doesn't make much sense)and neither effect is actually staking anyways. I get that the two effects do similar things but... well not really. I mean the stalker talent makes it a free action but does not give a + to the check while the cloak gives the + to the check but does not make it a free action. I would think the blending + the cloak would just cover any blind spots. Only reason I say this is I don't want be kind of dickish and say "choose between a higher concealment or doing it quicker" as really the cloak makes it easier to blend while the ability just makes it faster (not easier).

If there was confusion about his "+20 concealment" I was noting his skill, not the effect of the kindred "stalker" talent.

@Badlapje

It's not a stalkers equipment that makes them blend, it's their skin, an innate ability. Nor does it stack as the ability just makes conceal a free action whilst the cloak gives a +20 (so there is only one +20)

All of this aside I think just including some more flame and blast should do it (Ir goggles as well are a really good idea).

Dark Bunny Lord said:

Why is it dickish? It's entirely reasonable to me. It's a trade off - you can try to be invisible in front of people instinctively, or you can use the cloak. How is he meant to be using his own natural camo if he's got another form of camo (the cloak) covering up his skin?

MILLANDSON said:

If anyone's being ****'ish, its him. There is being good at something and there is rampant exploitation of character skills(which, by your portrayal of his actions, he is doing). My voidmaster is fully equipped to act as a jump-pack trooper(plasma pistol/power weapons/meltaguns/grenade caches) but you don't see me making my GM's world a living hell by constantly using the **** things in combat. Hell, I prefer pulling my snub revolver over my plasma cause its just way cooler...

You wanted a way to tone down this powerhouse to an equal level for your other players without wacking him with the nerfbat. We have provided.

A few more points, firstly how good is he at silent movement? They may not see him, but they could hear him to be able to use suppression fire on roughly where the noise came from.

Secondly, how much use are his equipment / abbilities vs something that "sees" like an astropath?

Thirdly, he is Xenos scum. If he is sneaking around constantly, that has to spook the crew even worse than having a xenos on board. Could be time for a Red Redemption cult forming on the lower decks. Which also conveniently tend to come with lots and lots of flamers.

MILLANDSON said:

Simple, it would make the talent insanely weak.

20% Less chance to stealth and loose out on other more viable starting talents for the trade off of using it for a free action? Doesn't sound worth it, that's just a bit "to much" of a gimp, especially when I think a situational "you're in the open take a -40" will more than do the trick (as it would make him drop to a 56 which is far easier to deal with since I can actually beat that without amping up NPC's to much).

Hygric said:

He wasn't happy with either of them (for obvious reasons) and would have executed both if not for the usefullness of the Kroot and the fear of what would happen by eliminating an Inq (though he did give him a grave threat).

Thus he is basically liked by neither side on the ship and the rest of the players are loyal to the RT and thus also found out and keep a close eye on him. I figure it's only a matter of time before he tries to do something like that again and get's whacked by his own allies.

Anywho the -40 when in plain sight should work fine, because if he's in cover at least he's much more limited as to where he can fire than just running around invis the vast majority of the time. As for his move silent he's very good, high AG +20 move silent +10 from field craft gives him around an 80.

Rift said:

Well yes, I got multiple solutions, I just didn't think making a starting talent that somewhat defines the Kroot as what it was and nerfing it to the point where an Item was better was the right one of those provided solutions so I didn't go with it, but instead the other situational modifier and AOE's solution. As for how he would gain the bonus the same way he would be able to somehow cammo his armor, clothes, and weapon with the ability lol (which is pretty **** at least since he needs it to be low to benefit from field craft).

Dark Bunny Lord said:

I get that. But basically his skin does the same as a cameo cloak: adapt to the surroundings. Just that his skin does it better (thereby making the test a free action and allowing him to do it in plain sight).

The basic problem there is that since it's his skin doing it, either he has to be naked & without gear in order to benefit from it when using it in plain sight (ie, when not in cover), or he has to to use the cloak in which case it's not a free action anymore. He can't have both with the stated descriptions of how it works. They go radically against each other. He can modify his skin as a free action below his cloak all he wants, but that won't hide him from sight as the cloak is mimicing what's outside of it, not what's inside of it.

To solve that, if i were him: i'd have him ask some of the tech-priests or artisans aboard his ship to cover up his equipment with cameo-cloak so that the majority of his body is still naked skin (allowing him to use the skill as a free action), but he can still benefit to an extent from the cameo-cloak: not a +20, but a +10, as he is not completely covered by it. Or he could ask the tech priests to make a work around for the cloak so that it always takes on the colour of his skin. Which would allow him the full +20 benefit and the free action. But it would take a while to figure out for the tech-priests i'd wager.

Badlapje said:

See, that's basically what I meant - the basic cloak wouldn't be augmenting the skin camo, it'd be replacing it.

Modifying the cloak would work though.

Someone mentioned astropaths but I think it bears repeating:

" See Without Eyes : An Astropath Transcendent is blind yet at the same time has the strange ability to perceive without using his physical senses. An Astropath Transcendent is functionally treated as if he can see normally (including seeing colors and being limited by walls, etc.). However, Astropath Transcendents are not affected by effects that target their vision, such as blind grenades and cameleoline. They are, however, completely incapable of seeing Untouchables."

--Rogue Trader Core Rule Book, pg 72

If you want xenos or other non-human opponents, give them the Sonar (pg 367) or the Unnatural Senses (pg 368) Traits. That should solve the problem.

sonar sense is also available to genetors :-) Forgot that, dumb as it is since my genetor has it :-)

Might even be some admech have it as an implant.

Yeah I don't think it's meant to be used naked (despite I realize how it makes more sense that way with the description the effect none the less makes no note of it). I do know wearing armour that's to heavy makes him loose his field craft however, so I assume for some reason it can work with the armor (likely more just of a reason to make it not pitiful compared to the other kindred abilities) more for a mechanics than an rp reason (as often the mechanics don't always make sense in rp from a realistic standpoint).

I do like the suggestion though of having the cloak modified to work right (perhaps just upping it's aquisition rating to re-acquire should it get destroyed). Or he could just have our Freebooter modify it, normally I wouldn't recomend such a job for an Ork.... but he is a sneaky Ork (Kommando and Mechboy) so at least he understands some of the nuances of stealth.

As someone who both plays a stalker Kroot and has had to GM with a player as one I've found that the ability tends to be far less abused than oh say...the rogue trader's ability to buy almost anything he needs.

The biggest restriction I've enforced is that such kroot cannot wear much armor. Anything over the 3 points allowed by their field craft should negate their special abilities to hide themselves. Add on the fact that equipment needs to be modified to have chameoline abilities (inquisitor's handbook under the skills section) and or kept minimal and you end up with a light armored ninja who's going to suffer that one time someone manages to draw a bead on him...especially considering how common full auto weapons can be. Sure there are force fields, but it's easy enough to say those aren't available and even when acquired they have a decent enough chance to end up shorting out after a half dozen or so hits.

As for solutions most of the one's I'd suggest are already being used...though I'd avoid the idea of saying IR goggles overcome the stalker ability as it seems like an arbitrary decision made to purposely screw over the player and that CAN come back around on you later. Instead stick to reasonable items like use of flame weapons, xenos hunting animals that use sonar and of course the psychic who sees souls instead of visual things.

Also spend some time thinking about what your other players are doing to make themselves useful or to just survive. Maybe the kroot player is just more inventive and or competent than the others who just stand in front of a heavy bolter and wonder why their flak armour didn't save them.

Since I'm not actually at your table I can't make that kind of judgement but it's a problem I have run into now and then.

OTOH if he just picked a kroot so he could be invisible 24/7 and otherwise plays it as a human who likes eating children...nothing says dead like being sent into the warp.