So I had this nifty character concept to be a guy who's planet was recently taken in by the emperium. He goes away to war for them and comes back to find out his family has been taken and his planet stripped of resources etc...feeling betrayed, he goes renegade...becomes obsessed with finding his family and screwing over the emperium.

I started statting him out and realized that Space Marine is going to be better in every way for this character. It's kind of frustrating.

I wanted him to be fast, stealthy, and not like a fair fight(sniperish...). A recon guy with a bit of yellow in him. So I thought I'd go heavy into BS, Agility, Perception. The passions don't give any bonuses to BS and hardly anything to agility (unless I want to lose out on perception). The +3 in BS and WS that Renegades get isn't as good as the +5 to every stat.

There's lots of bonuses to weapon skill, but melee wasn't really what I saw him doing and if I was going to go melee, then Space Marine is WAY better.

I don't know. Our group is doing the 100 point-buy and I sketched up an apostate that had a deception of 75 to start. I just feel like going with a Ranged fighter-type doesn't give the same "oomph" if you go human.

Am I missing something?

First of all, I'm pretty sure you can't have a stat over 50 if you are using point buy. Second, Story>Mechanics. If your GM lets allows it you can just get create passions with penalties and such that are equivalent (not overpowered) to what is in the book.

After reading my first post I see that it seems like I'm trying to min/max. In a sense, I am. I like to optimize my role in the party. So if I'm the group face, then I will try to make my skills/stats count even if I have to sacrifice combat. Apostates can and do start with 50 in Fellowship with point-buy. 25(base) +20 (point-buy)+ 5 (class bonus) = 50.

My point is that I'm trying to make a character that might end up exactly like the guy playing ranged specialized Space Marine...just less useful. What I'm trying to say is it SEEMS like Renegade is there to fill a combat role but Space Marines seem to do that and better. What is the Renegades role and can I make a character the way I envision it and still be useful?

When you're focusing a renegade on brutal, no-holds-barred, in-your-face combat, you're definitely going to be worse at it than a Space Marine. The Renegade comes into his own when you start hybridizing with the fields a CSM can't occupy either due to his size or due to his obviousness. That usually means stealth and/or social skills.

A combination of stealth and combat skills would be the sniper you envisioned. Take Adroit on Agility for better hiding (stealth is always opposed, so that additional DoS will always help) or on BS for better shooting. Now combine a Reaver Long Rifle with it's Accurate, Felling and Toxic traits with some aiming and I think you could almost one-shot a Marine to zero wounds with an average shot.

Cifer explained it perfectly. Chaos Space Marines are fantastic in direct confrontations, but are lacking in most other areas. You can definitely specialize in stealthy with Talents like Deadeye Shot and Marksman. Because the warp-infused post-human super-soldiers take large penalties to stealth and general subterfuge, training in Stealth, Security and other Skills could help differentiate you further.

What Cifer said. You seem to have a really cool character problem, don't let math get in the way.

Remember that you start as weak pathetic human but in few centuries you will be champion of K/N/S/T and you will get more buff from coruption.

Cifer said:

Nice. That's the way.

Lecram said:

If you are so concerned about the numbers here´s what you can do.

You can add up to 20 to a characteristic with allocating points.

So alloctating characteristics could look this way: 20 BS, 20 AG, 10 PER, 10 S, 10 T, 5 INT, 10 FEL, 10 WP, 5 WS

Pride, Failing, Motivation:

Foresight +5 Per, -5 FEL

Wrath: +5 PER, -2 WP, -1 Wound

Perfection: +5 BS, -3, -3

Take Ballistic Skill for Adroit.

That gives you: WS: 30, BS: 53 , S: 35, T: 35, AG: 45 , INT: 30, PER: 45 , WP: 30, FEL: 30

The stats you wanna focus on are quite ok and you don´t need to be dumb as bread or look like Quasimodo for it.

You are likely to purchase 2 Items (infamy bonus) at character creation. One can be a Long Las (a sniper weapon). Depending on your GM this may already include a Red Dot Laser Sight and be treated as one item or you get them as two seperate items. Getting those items at creation, one way or another is well within the budget of any character.

Now let me do the math here: BS 53, +20 for single shot (Red Dot included), +20 for half action aiming (Long Las is Accurate). So basically you either hit or jam (not quite because the Long Las is reliable, but almost). And with one additional dos for Adroit, high damage is very likely.

And you haven´t even spent your starting XP yet. I don´t say "You must do it like this!", all I´m saying is that BS is a non-issue for a sniper. If you´re trying to get excellent odds for hitting stuff at range, you will, no matter what you play.

You could get a Bolter too. Go for Bolter Drill talent and that coupled with Adroit: BS guarantees you at least two hits whenever you hit a semi-auto burst.

And those are just things I found without looking for any sort of "cheesy" stuff.

moepp said:

That said, then why go Renegade? Why not go Apostate? You end up with the same spread for STATS overall and you get way more skills to do all the social stuff plus the research needed to pursue the "find the family" background. If I use Cifers idea, I'll end up buying exotic weapon Training with either archetype so there doesn't seem to be an advantage going Renegade except for the extra DoS.

I really liked the examples and feedback, so this isn't a criticism. Maybe Renegade just doesn't fit the background I have planned.

I see the point that a Renegade can be good in combat while still be able to fit in to situations where a CM would stand out and I see how CM totally doesn't fit with the character concept. I see where the Renegade is a hybrid of both CM and Apostate, but it seems like it's not enough of either - like you're going to be overshadowed by either...

although, somehow it feels right for what I want...

See now! I'm waffling...

As a sniper, you are going to be a whole 2 points behind mr CSM on BS. So when it comes to shooting things, I'm going to call that a non-issue.

Where you will outshine mr CSM is in stealth. Sure your agility might be 5 points lower, but you can put addroit into Agi for that +1 degree to more than make up for that. As a human your +2 Initiative more than makes up for the slightly lower Agi as well. Pick up the Unremarkeable talent for even more stealth fun that a CSM can't take advantage of. Heck, you have 500 more XP to spend than a CSM at start so pick up both Unremarkeable and Lightning Reflexes to help ensure that winning initiative over mr CSM. That should help you get 2 aimed long-las shots into him before he can even go "Wha...?". Or use the suprise round action to shoot him and your winning initiative action to run away and hide and repeat the process in half an hour.

The sniper type of role is a combat role that I see humans winning hands down over CSM's. It's the mellee combat roles where CSM's truly shine and poor humans just go *pop*!

Lecram said:

Adroit. Take it for BS, enjoy a much better chance of scoring those extra damage dice on your sniper hits, and an extra hit on those autofire bursts. Or take it for Agility and enjoy being superstealthy, acrobatic, and dodgy.

It doesn't sound like much, but it can really make a difference.

So taking people's advice, I think I like the Renegade. THen I can use the xp to get the social skills I need which will colour him Slaaneshi. I kind of like the idea of not having the skills to seek out his goals but building up to it as the campaign progresses.

I had some questions about the Archetype.

The book says it starts with "Weapon training; Chain, Las, Primary, Sp, Sp" Why does it say sp twice? Does anyone have any ideas what the last weapon-type should be? They can start with a Power Mace, so could it be Power? Although they also can start with a Plasma gun...

I can choose one type of Heavy weapon. You can start with a Heavy Flamer, but I'm not sure I like the short range. Any good recommendations for a Heavy weapon? I like the big damage of some of the Heavy's like the Hell Hammer Las Cannon, but I also like the idea of laying down suppression fire from a distance and the Hell Hammer is only single fire....

I had the idea of taking lesser minion and just making it a servitor walking tripod. It would carry, re-load, brace and even fire (poorly) any heavy weapon I couldn't carry. Maybe there's a way to make it so it gives me some cover while I'm standing behind firing it. So if I'm hidden and far away from a potential combat covering my allies, I can open up with a couple sniper shots, then move to the Heavy and give them cover.

There are several irks with the Renegade.

Weapon Training typo. No one knows what it´s supposed to be. You´ll have to decide with your GM.

Heavy Weapon Training: Drop it, that Talent does not exist. Heavy Weapons are included in the Weapon Training Talent.

And last, your Renegade starts with a "Carapace Armour". No one knows which one, Carapace Armour is an armour type, not a specific suit of armour. Again you´ll have to decide with your GM.

About Heavy weapons: If you want to lay down suppressive fire with a heavy weapon, I suggest choosing one that´s full-auto capable. So a Heavy Stubber (basically a machine gun as we know it) or a Heavy Bolter.

But unless you wanna rack up muscles like Schwarzenegger, you might wanna be mindful with the weight of your equipment. Have a look at table 1-7 on page 42 of the Rulebook.

That minion idea doesn´t sound too bad though might be worth a try. Though that lesser minion will have drawbacks (maybe slow, maybe fragile, etc), even if it doesn´t fire the weapon itself. Guess it kinda depends on how much leeway you get from your GM.

Or if you want to go light(er) a Belt Fed Autogun loaded with Man-Stopper Rounds goes a long way.
The Armageddon Pattern Autogun from the DH Inquisitors Handbook should do the trick.

Belt Feed Armageddon:
Type: Basic SP
Range: 100
RoF: S/2/8
Damage: 1d10+4 I
Pen: 0 (3 with Man Stopper Rounds)
Clip: 100
Rld: Full
Special: Unreliable
Weight: 8.5kg
Availability: Scarce

This would basically be your M-60, PK Machine Gun, add a bipod for fluff and you have on cool weapon, or better yet add an Melee Attachement.

moepp said:

I did send those rules question directly to FFG. Unfortunately for the Heavy Weapon Training I was told to wait for the Errata. But the useful bit are the exact Armours for Renegade and Apostate.

> I have a several questions regarding Black Crusade. I would appreciate any help.
> 1. The Apostate archetype gets a Mesh Armour or a Flak Armour, but there is no armour that explicitly designated as such. What should he get?

He should get a Mesh Combat Cloak or Guard Flak Armour

> 2. The Renegade gets Weapon Training (SP) twice. Should he receive any other Weapon Training instead? He also gets Weapon Training (Heavy), but the Talent description is unclear regarding Weapon Training (Heavy). The Talent states that the Heretic can use all Weapon classes of the category he has selected. However no Heavy basic or pistol or throwing or melee weapons exist. Heavy heavy Weapons do not make sense either. Should he therefore learn to use all heavy weapons of every category instead? The Renegade also gets a Carapace Armour, which needs a narrower specification like the Mes h Armour of Flak Armour of the Apostate. Which is the right one?

The heavy weapon issue will be addressed in a forthcoming FAQ. He should receive Heavy Carapace.

Well, a lesser minion with 30 toughness and 30 STR can carry 36kg

give him agility 20 with quadruped or lower agility with Hover 4. Machine Trait and something else like Auto-stabalized but it would be better to give whatever weapon he's carrying the suspensors upgrade to half the weight and he could carry an impressive heavy weapon...if I could afford it.

The important talents would be quick draw, rapid reload and weapon training (X).

Sidenote: Can you still be all sneaky/stealthy in Light PA?