Hi,

Had a discussion today with a friend about the talent "Talented". The mechanical effect of this talent is another +10% to anyone skill you already know. To me this sounds bascially the same as just simply buying the skill for another 10%, to which I wonder why just not introduce a 'skill +30%' level instead of doing it the convoluded way of skill +20%, plus another +10% from talent. In my mind, a +30% skill level sounds more consistent with the system and would look better on the character sheet.

It would be like in Exalted you introduce a charm whos only mechanical purpose is to permanently generate 1 extra dice in said skill without any cost, but still have the exp-cost of the charm be exactly the same as if you where simply buying another dot in the skill. In the end you this makes you ask why not increase the skill-cap to 6 instead of 5.

Or am I being stupid here? Have I missed some purpose or mechanical motivation behind this seamingly uncessecary talent?

Funnily enough thats exactly what they did in Black Crusade. There skill buying structure is different from Dark Heresy since there are no ranks and its does not have be tiered as if building inside that structure. There is a new talent called Mastery that makes you auto suceed on a task if you spend a fate point (or infamy point in thier case) assuming you can succeed at all.

Unlike adding to skill training normally the Talented trait gives you a +10 regardless of skill level or training. You can start with Talented in an untrained basic skill and still do well since you would be at half your characteristic + 10.

ItsUncertainWho said:

But the wording of "Talented" suggests you cannot buy said talent without actually being at least trained in the skill (because it has to be a skill you know). Also, I don't see why anyone would acquire 'Talented' in a skill instead of simply upgrading the skill to Trained since, unless your characteristics is less than 20, the penalty for rolling a untrained skill is greater than the bonus gained from 'Talented'. And even if you could buy 'Talented' to basic skills, why not replace the talent with the appropriate trained skill-level for that skill? The talent really seem totally unnecessary.

Sorry for any bad English. English is my second language.

Voloo said:

You certainly can, you get Talented (whatever) as part of many background packages without having the skill as Trained.

Here's the difference. It is subtle but important.

Inquiry + 10 raises the basic Skill. It does _not_ provide a bonus.

Talented (Inquiry) gives a bonus of +10 to the skill.

The maximum bonus to a skill is +30%.

See?

bogi_khaosa said:

I am sorry, but I don't really see the difference.

The mechanical effect of maxium skill + talent is a total of +30%, which I think would look just more consistent and less confusing if you introduced a +30% skill-level and just got rid for the talent altogether. At any point you would get the talent 'Talented', just introduce the next skill-level instead. If you can get Talented on basic untrained skills, then it has a minimal use but the bonus is really miniscule, and I still don't see why anyone would buy Talented in a skill they also had the option to get trained in, and once you are trained in a skill buying Talented is exactly the same as just buying the next skill-level. I still think they should have introduced a different mechanical effect for Talented to set it apart from just buying a new skill-level.

andrewm9 said:

Yes, this seems simply just a lot more straightforward and easier but still completes the same goal, I think..

Yeah, I'm a stickler for internal consistency as well. I HATE redundant mechanics. An adaptation of Black Crusade mechanics to Dark Heresy is looking more appealing...

Voloo said:

Here's the difference. Skill +10 or +20 IS NOT A BONUS. It is a flat increase to the base skill. It does not count against the +30, the +30 adds onto it. Talented IS a bonus, so it does count against the +30.

Say you have Intelligence 40 and Tech-Use +10. Your Tech-Use is 50. You are doing a Very Easy (+30) Test. Your chance is 50 + 30 = 80%.

Say you have Intelligence 40 and Tech Use and Talented (Tech-Use). Your Tech-Use is 40. You are doing a Very Easy (+30) Test. The Test is already at maximum +30 , so the bonus for Talented does not help you. Your chance is 40 + 30 = 70%.

Looked at from the other direction, effectively what it does is decrease the Degree of Difficulty by 1 up to a maximum of 3 when all other modifiers are included.

bogi_khaosa said:

AHA, I now understand. I now see the difference. That being said, they still should have made something different with the talent. Like with your example, instead of providing +10 bonus it should decrees any skill penalty with 10%. Whatever the case, they should have explained this subtle difference more carefully.

Voloo said:

I totally agree. It took me a while to figure this out while adding up bonusses in actual gameplay.

I never really bothered with the +30 cap, and other games in the line have done away with it, and increased the options to a +/- 60.

After all, would an average dude (skill 30) fail a Very Easy (+30 for a 60% chance) test 4 out of 10 times, even with assistance, the right tools, plenty of time, etc etc?

Darth Smeg said:

Remember, even back with Dark Heresy, the game did recommend letting players auto-pass simple and/or mundane tasks, particularly when there's no danger, stress or consequence of failure. It's something that most groups do some of the time without realising - when was the last time you were called upon to make a Very Easy Speak Language (Low Gothic) Test to engage in simple conversation, or a Very Easy Awareness Test to spot an obvious object in plain view in front of you? It's the same principle - the really easy, stress-free and/or inconsequential things just pass without testing, so long as you're able to test in the first place (so you can't read without Literacy either trained or as a basic skill, and you can't speak the particular language common to Hive Tarsus on Scintilla without Speak Language (Hive Dialect)... but if you've got those skills, you'll seldom Test against them).

I agree, the talented talent is very strange. It would be far easier to incorporate a +30 skill level or treat it like the ascension Mastered skills specialities which grant one extra sucess on a passed role with the skill.

Isn't Talented also more limiting than the system used in BC?

In BC you can get +30 in any skill you posses.

Talented is a talent that can be taken a finite amount times, thereby limiting the amount of skills you can gain the bonus with.

Bassemandrh said:

Yeah, even looking through all the careers, there is not a talented talent listed for every skill. The talent itself says it is available for any skill, but without an elite advancement or future alternative careers, there is not an example of every talented talent being available.

The problem with removing the +30 limitation is that you wind up with Hive-World characters with Tech Use as an Untrained Basic Skill who can fix nuclear reactors if they get enough bonuses. The limitation is there for a reason.

bphill561 said:

But, in the same way, not every character in Dark Heresy has access to every Skill, or every level of Skill Mastery in every skill - the limitation is a facet of the advancement system, not of the Skills and Talents themselves.

Man, the more I hear about the BC changes, the more I dislike them. +30 to Dodge?

bogi_khaosa said:

As opposed to +20 to Dodge and Talented (Dodge)?

If you took the opportunity to look into the Black Crusade rules, rather than simply working on hearsay and rumour, you might get a better understanding of what the changes are. Simply hearing about changes on the grapevine doesn't give a complete picture, and no rule in any ruleset can be taken in isolation.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Nobody gets Talented (Dodge)!

I do like what I've heard about the changes to semi- and auto-fire.

bogi_khaosa said:

Not as standard, but it isn't like the potential doesn't exist. Rogue Trader presents a few different "Talented (Any)" options here and there as well.

That aside, while characters can potentially get easier Dodges in Black Crusade, they get fewer of them - Step Aside confers an extra reaction that can be used to Dodge or Parry (as they're both the same action, Evasion), but Wall of Steel no longer exists, so characters can't get more than two opportunities to dodge each turn. And, quite frankly, once you've gotten to Dodge +20, it's more about the number of Dodges than how easy they are anyway...

Also note that, at Ascension level, Talented becomes important when Skill Masteries are taken into account.

You may have Tech Lore Mastery, for instance, but it's your Talented talents that raise individual parts of that skill group, such as Medicae, to higher than +20.

The use of Talented in DH IMO mainly exists for the purpose of alternate ranks that can be taken by several careers, with one of the careers likely having a skill at +10 at that point and the other at +20. Talented helps them both while still preserving a difference of 10 points.

That said, I much prefer the classless system of Black Crusade.

@bogi-khaosa

The problem with removing the +30 limitation is that you wind up with Hive-World characters with Tech Use as an Untrained Basic Skill who can fix nuclear reactors if they get enough bonuses. The limitation is there for a reason.

Actually, that's not a reason at all. +30 still means that one can arrive at a value of about 45 if you're starting with a 30 intelligence. So... are basic Hive-worlders who can fix a nuclear reactor half the time better than basic Hive-worlders who can fix it 3/4 of the time?
Also, I'm really wondering how you intend to arrive at that +60, considering the test likely starts at somewhere around -30 and certain tools only work for those with a trained skill. You'd have to rack up 90 points of bonuses to get there, which doesn't sound that likely to me.