Tyrion and Timett - What happens when they go out drinking together?

By LoneWanderer, in 2. AGoT Rules Discussion

Posted at

So,

Question 1

I have new-school Lords of the Rock Tyrion in play as well as everybody's second favourite clansman*: Timett Son of Timett.

My opponent flips Valar Morgulis during the plot phase. In response I do the obvious thing, using Tyrion's response ability to kneel Timett; saving Tyrion from certain death.

What happens next? Obviously Tyrion lives, but what about Timett? His effect says that he can't now be killed by Valar, but does that matter? Has he already been killed (made moribund) by Valar's kill effect? Does his new unkillable status prevent him from being swept into the dead pile, or has it arrived a day late and a dollar short?

In other words: Who's manhood gets chopped off and fed to the goats. Mine, or my opponent's?

Question 2

Assuming that my mismatched comedy duo did survive until the challenge phase, I'd probably do something like using Tyrion to waddle across the board and punch my opponent in their metaphorical face.

Now, this seems like a pretty simple question and I'm fairly sure that the answer is yes, but the outcome seems good to be true: If I win the challenge with Tyrion (with Timett alive and kneeling) does Timett claim power for Renown when Tyrion wins?

Question 3

In a similar vein to the above, if I (for some mysterious reason) use Tyrion to launch a military challenge against a Stark opponent, on a day in which Timett is engaged elsewhere and isn't on the board: What happens when my opponent shouts "Nyah! Lethal Counterattack!". Does my board get completely nuked?

Sure, all my Clansman characters are 'participating' (because of Tyrion), but does that count as 'attacking'? I'm fairly sure that it does, but it seemed like a thing worth checking.

*Obviously everybody's first most favourite clansman is Shagga Son of Dolf.

Posted at

LoneWanderer said:

So,

Question 1

I have new-school Lords of the Rock Tyrion in play as well as everybody's second favourite clansman*: Timett Son of Timett.

My opponent flips Valar Morgulis during the plot phase. In response I do the obvious thing, using Tyrion's response ability to kneel Timett; saving Tyrion from certain death.

What happens next? Obviously Tyrion lives, but what about Timett? His effect says that he can't now be killed by Valar, but does that matter? Has he already been killed (made moribund) by Valar's kill effect? Does his new unkillable status prevent him from being swept into the dead pile, or has it arrived a day late and a dollar short?

In other words: Who's manhood gets chopped off and fed to the goats. Mine, or my opponent's?

The result of Valar is put into effect after you use Timett to save Tyrion, so he will be knelt (and can't be killed) at the point that Valar actually kills your characters.

LoneWanderer said:

Question 2

Assuming that my mismatched comedy duo did survive until the challenge phase, I'd probably do something like using Tyrion to waddle across the board and punch my opponent in their metaphorical face.

Now, this seems like a pretty simple question and I'm fairly sure that the answer is yes, but the outcome seems good to be true: If I win the challenge with Tyrion (with Timett alive and kneeling) does Timett claim power for Renown when Tyrion wins?

Timett would claim power for renown since he is considered a participant in a challenge you won. I'd also include any Deadly clansmen characters that are also knelt.

LoneWanderer said:

Question 3

In a similar vein to the above, if I (for some mysterious reason) use Tyrion to launch a military challenge against a Stark opponent, on a day in which Timett is engaged elsewhere and isn't on the board: What happens when my opponent shouts "Nyah! Lethal Counterattack!". Does my board get completely nuked?

Sure, all my Clansman characters are 'participating' (because of Tyrion), but does that count as 'attacking'? I'm fairly sure that it does, but it seemed like a thing worth checking.

*Obviously everybody's first most favourite clansman is Shagga Son of Dolf.

This is the downside of Tyrion's ability unfortunately. Without Timett in play, they are all considered participating attackers and would therefore be eligible for Lethal Counterattack.

Posted at

LoneWanderer said:

So,

Question 1

I have new-school Lords of the Rock Tyrion in play as well as everybody's second favourite clansman*: Timett Son of Timett.

My opponent flips Valar Morgulis during the plot phase. In response I do the obvious thing, using Tyrion's response ability to kneel Timett; saving Tyrion from certain death.

What happens next? Obviously Tyrion lives, but what about Timett? His effect says that he can't now be killed by Valar, but does that matter? Has he already been killed (made moribund) by Valar's kill effect? Does his new unkillable status prevent him from being swept into the dead pile, or has it arrived a day late and a dollar short?

In other words: Who's manhood gets chopped off and fed to the goats. Mine, or my opponent's?

Question 2

Assuming that my mismatched comedy duo did survive until the challenge phase, I'd probably do something like using Tyrion to waddle across the board and punch my opponent in their metaphorical face.

Now, this seems like a pretty simple question and I'm fairly sure that the answer is yes, but the outcome seems good to be true: If I win the challenge with Tyrion (with Timett alive and kneeling) does Timett claim power for Renown when Tyrion wins?

Question 3

In a similar vein to the above, if I (for some mysterious reason) use Tyrion to launch a military challenge against a Stark opponent, on a day in which Timett is engaged elsewhere and isn't on the board: What happens when my opponent shouts "Nyah! Lethal Counterattack!". Does my board get completely nuked?

Sure, all my Clansman characters are 'participating' (because of Tyrion), but does that count as 'attacking'? I'm fairly sure that it does, but it seemed like a thing worth checking.

*Obviously everybody's first most favourite clansman is Shagga Son of Dolf.

LoneWanderer said:

So,

Question 1

I have new-school Lords of the Rock Tyrion in play as well as everybody's second favourite clansman*: Timett Son of Timett.

My opponent flips Valar Morgulis during the plot phase. In response I do the obvious thing, using Tyrion's response ability to kneel Timett; saving Tyrion from certain death.

What happens next? Obviously Tyrion lives, but what about Timett? His effect says that he can't now be killed by Valar, but does that matter? Has he already been killed (made moribund) by Valar's kill effect? Does his new unkillable status prevent him from being swept into the dead pile, or has it arrived a day late and a dollar short?

In other words: Who's manhood gets chopped off and fed to the goats. Mine, or my opponent's?

Question 2

Assuming that my mismatched comedy duo did survive until the challenge phase, I'd probably do something like using Tyrion to waddle across the board and punch my opponent in their metaphorical face.

Now, this seems like a pretty simple question and I'm fairly sure that the answer is yes, but the outcome seems good to be true: If I win the challenge with Tyrion (with Timett alive and kneeling) does Timett claim power for Renown when Tyrion wins?

Question 3

In a similar vein to the above, if I (for some mysterious reason) use Tyrion to launch a military challenge against a Stark opponent, on a day in which Timett is engaged elsewhere and isn't on the board: What happens when my opponent shouts "Nyah! Lethal Counterattack!". Does my board get completely nuked?

Sure, all my Clansman characters are 'participating' (because of Tyrion), but does that count as 'attacking'? I'm fairly sure that it does, but it seemed like a thing worth checking.

*Obviously everybody's first most favourite clansman is Shagga Son of Dolf.

1. Based on looking at the flowcharts I think both are safe. Timett Kneels to save Tyrion in Step 2 of the Framework action window, and when the action is resolved in step 3, Timett is kneeling and his text should save him. I do not think he ever even enters moribund (I'm still learning though so I'll be curious to hear other thoughts).

2. I don't see why not, though see my disclaimer of noobishness from above.

3. I think you missed the part about KNELT clansmen characters are participating, not ALL clansmen characters are participating. But yes, I'd think that if you have any knelt clansmen characters that the counterattack would kill them. However if you attacked with Tyrion alone and have a standing clansmen character you could them kneel him to save Tyrion :)

Posted at

Re #3:

Regardless as to how the characters are participating attackers, they are considered eligible for the effect of Lethal Counterstrike as long as they can be killed.

I had thought you were implying that all your Clansmen in play were knelt and are thus automatically participating attackers because of Tyrion's ability.

Posted at

Thanks for the replies so far. Helpful stuff.

Bomb said:

I had thought you were implying that all your Clansmen in play were knelt and are thus automatically participating attackers because of Tyrion's ability.

Yeah, that's right. Apologies for not making it completely explicit.

In 3, I'm envisaging having a board of knelt clansmen, and Tyrion (for some reason I can't quite fathom right now) swinging like a boss in a military challenge.

Posted at

And even if Timett was there, he could kneel 2 influence to say "I don't care how many you are, I win this challenge" with Feigned Retreat. That's a Stark we're talking about, we have all kinds of ways to screw you in military.

Posted at

Khudzlin said:

And even if Timett was there, he could kneel 2 influence to say "I don't care how many you are, I win this challenge" with Feigned Retreat.

A very valid point indeed; however my opponent's only current source of influence is a single Northern Fiefdoms which he played two turns ago.

Posted at

dh098017 said:

1. Based on looking at the flowcharts I think both are safe. Timett Kneels to save Tyrion in Step 2 of the Framework action window, and when the action is resolved in step 3, Timett is kneeling and his text should save him. I do not think he ever even enters moribund (I'm still learning though so I'll be curious to hear other thoughts).

3. I think you missed the part about KNELT clansmen characters are participating, not ALL clansmen characters are participating. But yes, I'd think that if you have any knelt clansmen characters that the counterattack would kill them. However if you attacked with Tyrion alone and have a standing clansmen character you could them kneel him to save Tyrion :)

Mmm but based on that two statesments you would be killing your clansmen.....That clansman is giving his life for Tyrion??? Wow thats a hero right there.

REASON: Lethal Counter attack--> You kneel a clansman to save Tyrion---> Clansman is knelt so is now participating ---->effect (kill attacking char) ----> all knelt clansmen are know dead.

Posted at

choco said:

dh098017 said:

1. Based on looking at the flowcharts I think both are safe. Timett Kneels to save Tyrion in Step 2 of the Framework action window, and when the action is resolved in step 3, Timett is kneeling and his text should save him. I do not think he ever even enters moribund (I'm still learning though so I'll be curious to hear other thoughts).

3. I think you missed the part about KNELT clansmen characters are participating, not ALL clansmen characters are participating. But yes, I'd think that if you have any knelt clansmen characters that the counterattack would kill them. However if you attacked with Tyrion alone and have a standing clansmen character you could them kneel him to save Tyrion :)

Mmm but based on that two statesments you would be killing your clansmen.....That clansman is giving his life for Tyrion??? Wow thats a hero right there.

REASON: Lethal Counter attack--> You kneel a clansman to save Tyrion---> Clansman is knelt so is now participating ---->effect (kill attacking char) ----> all knelt clansmen are know dead.

EDIT: MISREAD POST

Posted at

I managed to read your post before the edit. Yeah this is any phase (lethal) so is before theresolution

That, your response, generated another question.

What denies a clansman that kneels for a response (cost or effect) to enter the challenge after the resolution before the actual challenge finish?. Granted, it may not be usefull at all but could be depending on effects and the order of them. (say count 8 strength to claim 3 power....they have to be participating but not necessarily in the actual counting of strength.... i think.... not reading the card right now)

Posted at

Lethal Counterattack is a Challenge action, so it must be resolved completely before the challenge can be resolved (it might even have been used before defenders are declared and in this case, there'll be another round of actions before the challenge resolves, assuming someone survives Lethal Counterattack).

Posted at

I have 3 char in play: Tyrion and Timett and another, if I lose a claim2 M challenge,then I choose Tyrion and Timett for the claim,and I use Timett to svae Tyrion, finally, Tyrion is saved and Timett is can not be killed.they are save,right?

Posted at

Right in that they both survive (though Timmett technically hasn't been saved).

Posted at

Hold on, if you choose Timett to satisfy claim, he becomes moribund, doesn't he? Acquiring "cannot be killed" after becoming moribund doesn't remove moribund status, does it?

Posted at

J_Roel said:

Hold on, if you choose Timett to satisfy claim, he becomes moribund, doesn't he? Acquiring "cannot be killed" after becoming moribund doesn't remove moribund status, does it?

You choose that targets in Step 1. Then you have the opportunity to save them in Step 2 (before they become moribund). Finally, they become moribund in Step 3.

Remember that saves do not "remove" moribund status either. NOTHING removes moribund status. Saves prevent the character from becoming moribund in the first place. So, simply choosing the character to satisfy claim in Step 1 does not make a card moribund; the resolution of claim in Step 3 does that.

So, in the example here, Timett acquires his "cannot be killed" in Step 2 before becoming moribund in Step 3 - thereby preventing him from becoming "moribund:killed" - just like Tyrion is prevent from becoming "moribund:killed" by the save.