Personally, I feed min-maxers to the Hive Tyrant...but that's just me! I'm a bastard of a GM...

Min Maxing is only an issue in certain games, and to be fair is usually not a problem in current generation RPGs.

The thing in the corridor with the Genestealers? That's hot **** cool but also sounds like more of a Last Stand situation to me (although if you survive it, yeah, it's tanking and it's tanking as in my LRP reference).

I think when people are talking about RolePlaying it out they (and I know I'm not) not meaning it as in Playing like Splinter Cell. They mean, consider your action from an entirely IC perspective. When I have people in the game I'm running need to make things like a Tracking roll or an Untrained roll for something or a stat roll for an action or anything else that effects the Kill Team in that scene or the flow of the Mission/Story. I ask them WHO is going to do it. I forbid any conferring of Stats (and in some cases where someone has purchased an unusual ability that has not been brought to attention of the Kill team IC , unless they make mention of it in an IC fashion there and then even that doesnt get a mention). I ask WHO is going to do it and it's either fastest answer or group consensus that delivers.

From the above characters now have reputations for things and are called upon to do those things at the drop of a hat. Obviously whenever there is prey needing to be tracked one of the Spacewolves is asked to do it, but it's almost always Brother Ivar (Devastator) who is out ahead of the KillTeam tracking the prey, despite having a perception 3pts lower than Brother Hreidar (Tactical marine). Why? Because he was first in of the two SpaceWolves the very first few times they needed tracking done. And he's passed his rolls every time. Brother Hreidar on the other hand has become known for his ability to spot and ambush and often goes without his helmet for all of his senses to work, even at the sacrifice of auto senses.

The Kill Team also often takes cover against in comming fire (when fighting Tau it helps) and out of this amazingly has emerged a "Tank" character. Dark Angel, Brother Elyas of the Apothecarion. Elyas almost never takes cover (or doesnt stay there for long) and is often the most visable and easy to hit Target as he's moving from position to position to dole out some Medicae. Now I hear you say Tactical Advance!. Nah, not for Elyas. With him it's Half Move towards injured - Single shot at enemy (unless they are VERY spread out, then and only then he runs for it). Or..OR... if no one is hurt he will stand there, in the open (and hasnt felt the need to activate the DA solo ability yet) and burst fire his Bolter while raging about the Xenos and the Heretic and the blessed cleansing fire of the Emperor in Astartes Bolter form. As a result he typically takes a percentage of fire every turn. Freakin' cool stuff though.

Also, in regards to the Tanking hypothesis. My OpFor in deathwatch are run with the level of Intellect and tactical acumen that goes with what they are. They will employ manuevers, tactical spacing in the environment, cover where available. They will also pick their targets depending on several factors: How well led they are, Proximity of potential threat, Visibility of Potential Threat. Ease of targetting potential threat and Danger level of potential threat (as demonstrated by Heavy Weapons, Displays of Psyker Powers ect). It's all a factor.

Also, with the above in mind. You want to Draw Fire onto Yourself (ie: TANK) in a situation then you may need some Social and Interaction Skills to back that up. An undisciplined rabble of heretics, a green company or a demoralised unit may very well just unload at the closest /ormost obvious thing they can see. A well drilled, experienced or well led unit is more likely to pick on targets of opportunity and value instead or indeed divide fire to do just that. Just like on the Field or in Campaign at LRP and I daresay in many other REAL theatres of battle..."Is that healer working at the back? Target noted." "Someone looks like they're in charge? Take them down." and the ever present classic (taken from ShadowRun, but applies just as well at LT) "If you can see him...Geek the Mage/Psyker/High Caster (ect)". So to get things hitting you that you want hitting you you may need to Intimidate or Charm or Command or similar (usually employed by taking your helmet off, or turning up the suit speakers to full and shouting and ranting alot in some way)convincing your enemy that YOU'RE the thing they should be worried about.

All of the above is a result of RolePlaying a Characters and an NPC's attitudes, experiences, emotions and perspectives.

crisaron said:

Oh, do not be mistaken, I am that kind of GM. In our run of the Emperor Protects for example, our kill team set the valley with the smaller dinos on fire and smoked the Diablodon out of his cave. They killed the genestealer broodlord at the end by letting an assault marine grapple (!) the beast so that a devastator could shoot the beast in the back with his heavy bolter.

In short, I am all for creative plans and I often allow re-rolls or I turn a blind eye to realism or rule-adherence. But tanking, as in one man going in taking all the damage while the others fire shots at the enemy from cover, is not the most creative plan in my book. Neither is using simplified WOW tactics in Deathwatch.

The simplified tactics in MMO are so successful because it's for after-work gaming which requires that the games don't demand too much thought/work from the gamers.

Extended weekend gaming has different requirements.

Alex

Watch-Captain Albus said:

Sweet you have a nice team but as the other guy we play after work whit no kids and wife allowed so most of the time it's down and dirty, people just want to blow steam off. So whenever we havea too complicated issue, the solution is often "Hey, Don your guy as taken the flaw fearless and obvious to danger right(as usual)? - HUmm , Yep, why? - Hey Don go over there, I will take a picture of you and the sleepling beast, just don't make a sound." - Why does the camera look like rcoket launher?" - "Nevermind and smile!"

I suspect that if people sit down and play Dungeons and Dragons with a map and minis they will find there is more than enough tactical depth for anyone. More than Deathwatch, certainly.

It is undeniably gamey, but given that this is a game I don't see that as a problem. Chess is gamey and that has a good reputation. We could do a lot worse than sit down to play chess every time there is a fight. Okay, speed chess.

A lot of the combat I have played in non-dungeons and dragons roleplaying has been bloody aweful. Entirely devoid of tactics. Just a series of attack rolls until someone fall over. And from the recordings of games I've listened to that is how a lot of people play Deathwatch. This is why I am so keen on having something as deep and entertaining as the combat system in dungeons and dragons.

I am more than happy to sit down to try and produce roleplaying rules on the find fix flank finish principle, but sod it this is a Space Marine game. Bald bodybuilders in brightly coloured armour. No need to reinvent the wheel this time. Just steal the perfectly good wheel from WoW.

AluminiumWolf said:

I won't go as far as perfect! LOL.... MapTool is pretty much a must for DW or table top minis with a load of abstraction, else it can get wierd. At least a very detailled map or description to seefeel how to use terrain and etc.

Doesn't need it more than any cyberpunk game aka it can be done with or without. That said I have recently acquired 6 regular DW shoulder pads and 5 for Terminators. And a fistful of magnets.

Anyway this largely boils down to taste and therefore pointless.However the default assumption is not implement a game MMORPG-style as there is no default assumtion in (RP)Game Design. You need a vision of what you want and design around that. If that vision is MMORPG-style, fine. If not, you do things differently. In particular I favour a design driven by the game world. And the game world doesn't allow for regular Deathwatch Marines to withstand the attacks of a Hive Tyrant or Daemon Prince for long. Also an Apothecary can't heal all wounds instantly and a damage healer should probably find it hard to eliminate such an enemy all on his own.

That plus I wouldn't design a game that is played on weekends and not after work hours by a substantial number of gamers around 'after work hours' game design.

Alex

AluminiumWolf said:

What tactical options of D&D do you find missing in Deathwatch, pray tell?

Closest thing I can think of your looking for that compares to taunting, is the Deathwatch Champion ability Distract, which falls under Intimidation. a marine that is not a DW champ may do the same thing but with an incurring minus, unless he has enough points in the Intimidation skill. the minus would be GM determined ofc, taking note of enemy type, as well as how many points are required in the skill to make a +0 challenging roll. Generally machines, necrons, some tyranids(hive mind) and perhaps elite or masters may not adhere to the intimidations, once again at GM discretion.

Pg 99 DW handbook

intimidate (BaSic, interaction)
Strength
The character uses Intimidate Tests to pressure individuals
to give in to his demands. The character does not make an
Intimidate Test every time he makes a threat, but only when
it involves coercion. Though Intimidate lists Strength as its
associated Characteristic, the character may substitute either
Intelligence or Fellowship if the threat involves more subtle
methods than brute force, such as blackmail or humiliation. An
Intimidate Test affects a number of targets equal to the character’s
Strength, Intelligence, or Fellowship Bonus, depending on the
characteristic used for the test. The targets must be able to see
and hear the character clearly, either in person or via pict or
vox-caster, and speak a common language.
Skill Use: Full Action

Special uses

War Cry
As part of a Charge Action a character may use the Intimidate
skill to make a war cry. This is a Free Action that targets the
recipient or recipients of the character’s charge—i.e. those he
will end up in combat with and make melee attacks against.
The character then makes an Intimidate Test, based on
Strength, opposed by the target’s Willpower. If the character
is successful, the target suffers –10 to all Parry and Dodge
tests against the charging character.
Creatures immune to the effects of Fear and other mindeffecting
psychology are immune to the effects of a war cry.

As for the Distract ability, the PDF I have wont allow me to select the text, but it says: BB makes opposed intimidation skill test against the foe who resists using its Willpower. if the BB succeeds the foe must spend its next turn either movig closer to the BB or making an atk against him. must melee if possible, ranged attacks ( I assume this includes psychic spells) suffer a -10 to hit. Distract lasts for rounds = to the BB Fellowship bonus. GM discretion of enemies with Machine or From Beyond Traits may be immune, Hordes are affected as listed above. in melee horde devotes atks to the champion, gaining a -20 to attacks against other targets.

I think as a house rule you could make this a buyable talent for about 1500.

Morangias said:

I'd avoid that. It really devalues the Champion if everyone can do something which is specifically labelled as their special class ability. Considering the other aspects of the class, I think it needs to retain this unique facet to retain a lot of its value.

I personally think that the idea of generally 'making' things attack someone is an artificial device of computer games. It doesn't really have much of a place in an RPG. If you stand next to Bob the Dev, why *should* smart foes not attack him? D&D characters had happily been tanking for 20 years by having the brains to stand in doorways, blocking foes. Then along came EQ et al where monsters could 'walk through' such players, and game designers needed to come up with a 'taunt' mechanic. It's entirely artificial. If I were fighting for my life, and could choose between attacking a 7' monster in plate armour who is calling me a 'sissy', and a thin bloke in a dress, holding a stick, dropping arcane destruction on my allies; I know who I'm swinging for (no matter how much the former character insults my parentage!)

'Tanking' -if anything- should be a factor of terrain: Your 'tank' holds choke points and routes of attack, and places himself in the most exposed, obvious position to be rushed. That is infinately more 'tactical' than rolling a dice and demanding that everything mindlessly attacks you. That's not tactics at all: It's a game device that is entirely artificial.

If you want to draw fire from other players, it needs to be done by *thinking* about how to achieve that goal, and placing the character in the situation that does so.

Zappiel said:

Well Codex does state that using space marines to make a breach and hold the breach until the IG can secure it... usually the 1st company job to take and tank until they have support....

And No ones as said that tanking had to be doen in a strait "mechanical" maner ut coudl also be a character trait, as you SM as this fantasy that he is unbreakable.

a lot of you also seam to think that TANK involves aggroo management but that is really a game Computer mechanics. AGRRO does not exist in RPG... Well maybe with Zombies... We did kite a lot of zombies on Alpha-Omega!

And they did add something to let you do this in First Founding with the wargear that makes all enemies that can see you make a roll or attack you instead of your batle brothers....

- Nids use spores to attrack nids to one members... "You sure this is the right spores?"" I am sure, they make all litchor want to reproduce like crazy" Reproduce?" " Just wait and see"

- Orks : "You weakling orks, I can take anyone of you with boths hands behind my back, you excuse for a grot skin warth! Your mommy was a hummie and your datie an elfy!" "You ain't green!" "Mork is weak and Gort is a *****!"

- Chaos : "hey spiky bits, see this, it's a relic of holy terra, come and take it you god taker!"

Siranui said:

The thing is, it's not clearly labeled as Champion's special class ability. It's vaguely labeled as Intimidate New Special Use, and the description makes no mention of the Champion in particular. So it could go either way. And considering other perks of being a Champion (the definite special ability of the class, Xenos Bane, is pretty good, but two purchases of Signature Wargear: Hero are what really makes this class worthwile), I wouldn't personally complain if everyone could use Intimidate to draw fire upon themselves.

Siranui said:

I think that taunting has it's place in RPGs, because not every foe, including intelligent ones, is always capable of making the most optimal tactical decision, and characters should be able to influence that. Sometimes, it can be done simply by denying the enemy the more optimal solution, but sometimes you can just use battlefield psychology on them, so it's nice to have rules governing that.