Something I see repeated over and over in canon for space marines is the need to harvest the progenoids from fallen space marines. However, I would have thought that the progenoids would be harvested as soon as they were mature (at 5 and 10 years after implantation respectively). Is this not the case? Is there some biological reason that they wouldn't be harvested as soon as they were ready or at least canon references to some kind of tradition that would present early harvesting? I'm probably missing something but I'm curious if someone can fill me in.

To the best of my knowledge, harvesting the Progenoids kills the Space Marine. You can see why they wouldn't want to do that.

That would certainly explain the Astartes behavior but I can't find evidence that backs it up. In the lexicanum article progenoids are specified as being harvested after they are matured or after death. However, I don't recall any canon making such a distinct point. I've heard theories/opinions that after a progenoid gland is matured it will continue to absorb geneticmaterial from the marine it's in and can thus become "more powerful" by potentially imbuiing it with the characteristics of a hero. Perhaps Chapters with a large store of geneseed can afford to wait to harvest the progenoid glands with the hope of strengthening their future marines. Another theory I've encountered was that the process was risky, but not necessarily fatal. This theory, along with the fatal harvest theory, seem to me to contradict the superhuman recovery powers of a space marine. Of course, they also seem to be the only explanation (besides misguided spiritual beliefs about geneseed) that explain the Astartes behavior.

Basically, I'm hesitant to come to any conclusions without canon evidence since this seems like a rather fundamental point.

Lotsa reasons not written by GW.

Refer to Lexicanum and Black Library Bolthole http://s6.invisionfree.com/bljunkies/ar/t1559.htm .

The first implanted geneseed can be taken removed 5 years after maturation. The other is kept in the body. I presume the one at the neck is removed first while the other is left to regulate the implanted organs. That can be harvested earlier on without consequences (if the chapter needs more marines to replenish their numbers).

Most of these are speculations. There has been talk of the emperor's scythes finding geneseeds on a Nid ship. Alot of talk surrounding why or when or why not harvest gene seeds.

The novel The Gildar Rift (I got a prerelease copy at Games Day) deals with this briefly:

SPOILER WARNING

- a character gets captured by the Red Corsairs and has his progenoids removed while he stll lives. The character survives, and is rescued by his Chapter in the end, but the character believes himself to be an abomination - a Space Marine without his progenoids - and there's some speculation at the end by some of the characters that the presence of the progenoids and its interaction with the other implants may be important to a Space Marine's lifespan, and that he'll begin to age normally (rather than at the normally slow rate of the Astartes) without it.

Obviously, it's one idea in one novel and so hardly the most conclusive evidence, and it's noted as being speculation on the part of the characters as well, so it could well be entirely wrong, but it's an interesting idea nonetheless.

Ithink I read somewhere that the progenoids store some of it's owners experience.
So they get better/more powerful over time.

If that was the case you would have to find the right balance between harvesting them early to have them secure but "weak" or let them store experience with the risk that they are lost when the SM dies in a situation where it's impossible to harvest them.

I'm not sure how canon it is but i've always worked off the assumption that a space marine has to have one set of progenoids to live but their body will produce a viable set of spares every thirty years. When chapters take enough losses that their taken off active status for a time that is what their doing, kicking around the fortress until enough progenoids grow. to boost their numbers up to full strength. If losses are drastic enough for some the adeptsu will likely just disband the chapter and shuffle the warriors into another.

I can't remember what I read that gave me this impression but it's actualyl the only thing that makes sese as otherwise everytime a space marine was killed in battle and their geneseed went unharvested, which in the chaos of war should be a lamentable but all too regular occurance especially when units are wiped out completely, the overall number of space marines would go down, never to rise again.

According to the newest space marine codex; progenoids create and store germ cells for the other implanted organs. It does not say how long this takes nor does it say how many germ cells for each organ are created. I am led to think that if you leave a progenoid in a marine for a long time then you will have many more germ cells than if you remove it sooner.

Hey hey!

I know I have read that progenoid maturation takes 7+ years, after which they may be harvested. They then regrow. A marine can be harvested multiple times. (Just wish i could remember WHERE I read it... )

According to fluff, every space marine has a pair of progenoid glands: one deep in the chest cavity which is hard to reach and one on the back of the neck. The one on the neck matures after five years and can then be harvested by an apothecary to culture new organs for other space marines. The one in the chest cavity matures only after ten years.

As I imagined it, the chapter's apothecary will harvest the progenoid glands on the neck every five years. Those glands are then used to pay the tithes to Mars, create new space marines, or, when they are not used, they go to the chapter's gene-stores. This makes that there is an abundance of gene-seed. But because a chapter is at war all the time, the gene-seed overstock is no luxury at all.

So we have a range of different theories, then, with no clear answer! To summarise, the theories are:-

(1) That marines have two progenoids, and harvesting them kills the marine.

(2) That marines have two progenoids, and one is harvested upon maturity, the other one remains in the body until his death. Progenoids do not regrow.

(3) That marines have two progenoids, and one is harvested upon maturity, the other one is also harvested on maturity. Marines regrow their progenoids throughout their lives, and can have them regularly harvested.

and although no one's said it yet, I suppose there's a fourth theory which logically follows on from those:-

(4) Marines have two progenoids, they are harvested upon maturation, but don't grow back. Harvesting doesn't kill the marine.

Personally, I favour the third theory. It would make sense, I would suggest, for a chapter to be able to regrow its strength without being totally reliant upon scrabbling around on battlefields for progenoids. That's always been my problem with theory 1. It seems ridiculous to leave the future of a marine chapter to the off chance that whatever killed the marine won't also destroy his progenoids.

Here's another thought: perhaps SOME chapters can regrow/reharvest progenoids throughout a Marine's life, whereas others can't, based upon the geneseed they inherited from their Primarch. This would in part explain why there are so many Ultramarines successor Chapters.

It would also explain why there are so few/no Salamanders successors, despite their being ostensibly a totally reliable and noble chapter.

Perhaps the Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, White Scars, Blood Angels etc are Type (3) marines. Perhaps the Space Wolves and Raven Guard are Type (2) Marines. And perhaps the Salamanders are Type (1) Marines, reliant totally upon recovering their dead and ancient gene-stocks from when they were a legion.

Any thoughts?

Lightbringer said:

For all I know from fluff, the progenoid harvesting has never been cleared out. Do the glands regrow? Can they be harvested without killing the marine? We do not know. So, your theories could all be true.

Someone should write a letter to Games Workshop (or FFG)

Watch-Captain Albus said:

I suppose the advantage of my theory is that it means all fluff written so far is likely true even if contradictory, so it would immediately end any loose ends/contradictions in the canon...GW like that sort of solution!

I kind of favor the idea that the neck gland is removable, while the chest gland is not. (Without killing the marine.) However, as long as the chest gland is intact, the neck gland is regrown, approximately every 10 years or so. This makes a Marine valuable to contributing to the continued lineage of the chapter during life AND death. This covers both of the 'maturation' times as well. My example timeline would go something like this:

Year 0: Implantation of progenoids

Year 5: Maturation of neck progenoid - removal

Year 15: Maturation of neck progenoid - removal

Year 25: Maturation of neck progenoid - removal

Year 27: Marine falls in combat - removal of immature neck progenoid; removal of chest progenoid

So, during that Marine's life, there was a net gain of 3 progenoid glands for his chapter.

As for the Salamanders, I'd imagine that the Dropsite Massacre prevented them from getting an "early start" on gene-seed stocking - by the time they had rebuilt, the other chapters had pretty much "taken care of" providing adequate gene-seed for the bulk of successor chapters. Since every chapter contributes a 5% gene-seed tithe to the mechanicus... missing the first couple of foundings puts Salamander gene-seed at a statistical disadvantage. You might be drawing from 10-15 Ultra-chapters, and just 1 Salamander chapter. So, more chapters get formed from the Ultra genetics... tilting the imbalance further.

In the thread that Deepstriker posted ( http://s6.invisionfree.com/bljunkies/ar/t1559.htm ) Gav Thorpe chimed in. From what he said I'm leaning towards Lightbringer's option 1 stating that both progenoids can be harvested on maturation and don't regrow. Personally I'd lean against the regrowth theory for one of two reasons.

Either: a) every chapters progenoids regrow in which case the Crimson Fists would have never been close to being disbanded since in a mere 30 years they could have produced (at least) 300 gene seed (they had been reduced to approx. 100 marines as I recall) and would in actuality have rapidly increased their ability to produce gene seed. This would mean that only chapters reduced to essentially squad levels such that they were unable to maintain equipment and train up novices would be disbanded. Since this isn't the case I'm assuming that option a isn't true.

Or: b) Only some chapters regrow gene seed. While I am comfortable with whether or not gene seed harvesting is fatal being unstated in canon I think it would be somewhat absurd for a limitation/mutation such as certain chapters being (comparatively) unable to replenish their members while other chapters have a ridiculous abundance of gene seed to be unstated. There is much discussion about what abilities the various chapters lack / what mutations they have in the source material we have. I simply can not imagine that such a difference between the chapters would remain unstated.

Because of the above I personally don't think that canon is compatible with regenerating gene-seed. If my reasoning is flawed somewhere please point it out. Gav's post does definitely overrule the harvesting being fatal though (although it says nothing about some chapter's taking a spiritual view on the matter).

As an aside, I believe there are three primary reason that the majority of chapters are descended from the Ultramarines.

Biological: The ultramarine gene-seed is extraordinarily stable and mutation free.

Sociological: Guilliman is the prototypical primarch. He created the codex and advocated for limiting the power of any one chapter master (by limiting the size of his chapter). Since the High Lords want loyal and predictable marines they favor those from his lineage.

Historical: Since the Ultramarine legion had an entire subsector to recruit from it ended up being one of the larger legions and those produced the largest number of second founding chapters. The end result is that there has always been a large amount of ultramarine descended gene-seed to choose from.

We should be clear as to why the Ultramarines are the most widespread geneseed: Roboute Guilliman was the Head of the High Lords of Terra for a thousand years following the Heresy. He called the shots. Is it any wonder His boys were favoured? I'm sure he even came up with compelling arguments as to why His geneseed should receive preference...

The Salamanders have a stable geneseed: their mutations are a result of their homeworld. We've not heard a lot from their successors because, sadly, they just aren't popular (not drunken viking popular, nor even uptight patrician/codex marine popular); thus, nobody wants to greenlight a project that may not prove profitable. Same goes with the other loyalist chapters that just don't get any love.

And as for Gav Thorpe, well, his tales seem to exemplify the outer limits/twilight zone motif, very jerk-the-carpet-out-from-under-yer-feet; so it's no wonder he goes for option 1!

But I know I've read a marine comment that he'd been harvested....still can't recall where.....

And to point out a flaw in the 'geneseed stays in till death' theory, i would submit that any exposure to outer space could and would allow stellar radiation to corrupt/mutate the genetic structure, rendering the geneseed worse than useless. And since all space marines are, ahem, 'space' marines, all would have highly corrupted progenoids after only a brief term of service. That puts a nasty clamp on the reproductive viability of the chapters. Not to mention all the geneseed lost on the battlefield, or in warp accidents, or what have you. And then there are the tithes, those unforgiving tithes....

...Although, I should also point out that I like the idear of the chapters each having their own perception/interpretation of the idea...

Zappiel said:

Not really true. The Salamanders (or "salad-menders" as my DM affectionately calls them) have become quite a hit with the Tome of Fire series by Nick Kyme. The sons of Corax are popular with their brand of ninjutsu too. I'm sure with new material from "First Foundings", the other loyalist chapters will also come into their own light. Like the Iron Hands, and White Scars.

Zappiel said:

And as for Gav Thorpe, well, his tales seem to exemplify the outer limits/twilight zone motif, very jerk-the-carpet-out-from-under-yer-feet; so it's no wonder he goes for option 1!

Shoot! I meant to say option 4. He gives no hint that the harvesting procedure is fatal. He actually implies that some marines have already had their gene-seed harvested. That was silly of me.

Oh dear! Well, now we are clarified! Perhaps Gav's work is where I gleaned my ideas from....

And I'm glad to hear that someone's taken the Salamander ball and that it has proven out. More fuel for the fluff pile....

Deepstriker said:

Salamanders certainly seem one of the most popular TT chapters, outside of their own codex lot, at least ones that featured in vids and photo's etc. But they will always be second pic to one of the grossely overpowered own codex lot. And they aren't likely to get to one because the general feeling at GW was that single chapter codex's was a mistake. A mistake that's making them a fair amount of money and created a some loyal customers but one thats overall cut into their profits, so they aren't likely to be casting around for new chapter codex's regardless of what chapter it is.

Then it falls to us to carry the torch of the 'lost' chapters and give them the love they deserve....if the TT chooses to fail these marines, then, by the Emprah! we in the roleplaying community will not fail them!

But, to slide ever-so-gently back onto topic, is there any information out there describing the various harvesting practices and beliefs of the various chapters? Obviously, the majority of marines must still bear progenoids, or the sacred functions of the Apothecary would be unneccessary - he'd just be a combat medic. Does this merely mean that the majority of rank and file marines are quite young? Or are their cultural beliefs surrounding the retention of progenoids for one's lifetime? Have any of the fluff sources touched on this? (ugh, and if i'm repeating questions already posed, I apologize - brain is tired and it's been a looong day....)

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Progenoids do NOT regrow. I've got a couple of reasons for thinking this.

1) From everything I've ever read, harvesting a fallen Space Marine's Progenoids is an Apothecary's single most important duty.

2) Grimdark.

I'm going to use a couple of assumptions that I think I read somewhere, but I don't remember where I read them so I'm not going to try and present them as fact.

- First, that the Progenoid in the neck matures after a five year span.

- And second, that the Progenoid in the chest matures after a ten year span.

If both Progenoids are capable of regrowth, then in one ten year span a Space Marine could theoretically produce three Progenoids. In one 100-year span (assuming the Space Marine is not killed or similarly removed from his Chapter) a Space Marine could theoretically produce thirty Progenoids. A Chapter of nominal strength (one thousand Battle-Brothers) could produce thirty thousand Progenoids in the space of 100 years. It's been (approximately) ten thousand years since the Great Heresy. That's a LOT of Progenoids.

If only the Progenoid in the neck is capable of regrowth, then the Space Marine can produce two Progenoids in a ten year span, and twenty Progenoids in one hundred years. Again, a lot of Progenoids. Similarly, if the Space Marine can only regrow the Progenoid in his chest, then he's still providing material for ten Space Marines in a hundred year period. We're still left with a fairly large amount of Progenoids.

Now, I don't know what the 'average' life-span of a Space Marine is, but I'm going to go ahead and assume that the vast majority last at least ten years. Say perhaps half survive fifty years, and only about ten percent last a hundred or more.

Assuming Progenoids are being harvested regularly, most Space Marine Chapters are going to have an abundance of them lying about. Certainly enough to recover from practically any catastrophe, with the exception of complete annihilation. Certainly, harvesting a fallen Battle-Brother's Progenoids is certainly not half as important as the Apothecaries make it seem, if such a wealth of Gene-Seed is lying about.

Now that I've gone ahead and thrown a bunch of numbers out there, I'll state my theory:

1) Progenoids do not regrow

2) The Progenoid in the neck is harvested at maturation, for safety's sake

3) The Progenoid in the chest is left inside the Space Marine, to accumulate 'experience' (or germ cells, or to regulate other organs, or for some other reason. I don't really know).

This still allows a Chapter to rebuild (slowly) from catastophes, allows them enough extra Gene-Seed to justify the tithes to Mars, but makes the recovery of a fallen Brother's Gene-Seed absolutely vital to maintain the status quo.

Whew! Long post, and I could easily be stark raving mad, but that's my view on the subject.

Zappiel said:

Hear hear! By the Primarchs and the Loyal Legions. We will bring glory to their Chapters. For the EMPRAH!!!!! Ok back to reality, what Face Eater is very true. Now that GW has gone listed on the London Stock Exchange, its all about profits for investors (Which corporation exists to make losses?). So instead of having multiple codices that attract a few loyal customers, why not put them in an inclusive blanket that is the SM Codex.

I think Prince of madness made a valid point in this, which seems to suggest that each marine has only two progenoids in his life time. So once the Geneseed matures and has matured for harvesting, then The progenoid is extracted. But since the mature progenoid contains germs that can be grown into space marine organ implants or geneseeds to be implanted into new marine aspirants.

In that way it seems to support the sacred function of the phrase, "He that is unable to fight, take from him the Chapter's Due" and further strengthens the Apothecary role. But the role of the Apothecary is not just a combat medic or the extractor of the progenoid. The Apothecary also maintains the pool of geneseed materials and the purity of the geneseed. That's why he's an important character. Geneseed abnormaly means no future marines, or possible mutation in future marines. Imagine the Apothecary saying to the Chapter master "Erm Houston, I think we have a problem"

The majority of the Space Marines Chapters have a variety of different age. There are those who are veterans and have served many millenia. Like for the Space Wolves, they begin as a blood claw, then work their way to Grey hunter and then the Long Fangs. If a company experiences losses (and large losses), most codex adherent chapters will promote from their scouts (I stand corrected). So in these cases, the age range of the company that takes in the new recruits might seems to be very similar.

For the fluff sources, I've not read as extensive as the rest. So I'm inclined to say I don't really know what the cultural beliefs are surrounding the retention of the progenoids.

Personally I take a somewhat middle of the road approach to progenoid harvesting.

While the glands regrow, they only do if there are mature glands left in the marine. Otherwise the regrowth stops.

In addition the glands soak up more strength and usefulness over time, at least to a point. Let's say this takes two to three times as long as maturity, perhaps effected the hosts experiences.

Removing glands after they mature, but before they have reached their full potential "weakens the blood" so to speak. So while it is possible to remove progenoids quite often, the marines they produce will be intrinsically weaker than those made from glands which have reached their full potential.

As such most chapters would rather be dissolved and folded into another force, than watch their proud lineage become diluted and weaker.

This theory mostly works with some odd, and not so odd fluff parts I have heard:

~ Astartes from newer chapters are sometimes weaker than those from older chapters. This being because older, more well entrenched chapters have more of a base to build from. Also, the gene tithes to the machanicus would largely consist of mature glands which are have not yet reached full potential.

~Ultramarine successors are everywhere. Back when the chapters were formed there were a whole lot more ultramarines than anyone else left. The Ultramarines had more full potential glands to use, compared to the rest of the loyalists.

Well, I keep to my theory of continuous progenoid harvesting (at least the one the neck). But I like to react to your last fluff bits, because I find them so interesting.

SomVone said:

I do not know if it is related to chapters, but I read somewhere that newer space marines (41st millennium ones) are somewhat weaker than the space marines from the 32nd millennium. I thought to have read that this was caused by a decline of knowledge. The current space marine apothecaries and mechanicum gene-technicians have less understanding about the space marine creation process than they did in the 32nd millennium.

There is a nice piece of fluff in the Battle of the Fang book that explains why the Space Wolves have lost the last hope in understanding the effects of the canis helix.

SomVone said:

The Ultramarines where with more after the Horus Heresy. Numbers go up to 250.000 marines. The Raven Guard, the Salamanders and the Iron Hands legions saw there numbers decimated in the drop-site massacre of Isstvan V. While the Iron Hands and Salamanders retreated and licked their wounds for the rest of the heresy, Corax tried to make up for the loss and by doing this damaged the entire Raven Guard geneseed. After the heresy, there were at least a 150.000 Imperial Fist marines left. Rogal Dorn however did not want to comply with the Codex Astartes and went on some self-destructive penitence crusade against the Iron Warriors. After the Ultramarines rescued them, there was only enough of the Imperial Fists left to create four chapters. The Space Wolves and the White Scars never had great numbers. So that gives that the Ultramarines have the most successor chapters, followed by the Blood Angels (allthough with a distance).