Watch-Captain Albus said:

I agree with the first part, disagree with the second. I seem to recall a number of sources stating that the Imperial Fists' geneseed is the second most utilised after that of the Ultramarines.

Lightbringer said:

In the end there were/are more Imperial Fists successors or more chapters that have the Imperial Fists' geneseed. But right after the second founding, I thought to have read that there were more Blood Angels successors than Imperial Fists successors. The Lexicanum states five second founding chapters for the blood angels and only three for the Imperial Fists.

Aha, sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying, apologies. I didn't get that you meant 2nd foundng chapters.

I seriously doubt progenoids can be harvested every few years then regrown. I say this because in the fluff, if a chapter looses or has it's stock of gene-seed stolen, it is doomed to a slow death, as it cannot create enough new space marines to replace its losses in battle. The prime example of this is the Marines Errant, whose Fortress-Monestary on Vilamus was raided by Huron Blackheart for nearly all of its gene-seed stock.

If progenoids could be harvested as some suggest, the Marines Errant wouldn't be in any danger of fading at all, they could just harvest neck progenoids and rebuild their stock.

It is suggested in one of the Blood Angles novels that gene-seed can be grown through servitors and lab thralls, but it takes a time. Long enough that any chapter dangerously below strength and lacking gene-seed will stay that way for decades, if not centuries or even a full millennium.

On another topic entirely. Some sources suggest that the salamanders gene-seed is extremely unstable. A prime example is Rites of Battle, and several other sources detail a chapter that maybe be descended from the Salamanders, the Black Dragons, who have an incredibly mutated gene-seed.

But is this 'instability' a result of a lack of love for the salamanders?? I think so.....I believe that later authors have taken a lack of development in the Salamanders as an opportunity to make of them an unstable chapter...which I do NOT believe is supported by early 'canon' (yes, i use that word in as loose a sense as possible). The Salamanders were mutated, yes, by the radiations of their homeworld and nothing more (according to early sources). It seems to me to be naught but Chaos propaganda that says that every mutated marine chapter has to descend from the Salamanders....

I still contend that the Salamander's 'mutation' of the melanochrome is simply nothing more than "Working As Intended". (Ok well, maybe the eye thing is a little creepy. But the skin part of it seems to operate in accordance with the description of the organ on Lexicanum.) Recent sources stating that it IS a mutation would have to be given precedence, but I think it arose out of a "meh, can't be bothered to see what really causes it" mentality. To me, genetic suntan seems pretty mild in comparison to say, completely inoperative organs. (I'm looking at you, Imperial Fists.) The difference, I guess, is in the visibility.

Back on topic, though - I think that the progenoids almost HAVE to be regrown in Marines, or you never have any sort of gain at all. If they don't... where do they come from? If none grow on their own but are merely implanted for 'maturation', where are they generated to start with? I think the issue comes from the relative vagueness in the process - most likely to purposely leave as many different approaches open as possible.

Pyrus said:

It was mentioned in the Salamanders Tome of Fire Trilogy that the Malanchrome working as intented due to the radiation on Nocturne and Promethus. The eye thing seems to be a mutation.

Well, considering that in the RG - one out of ten aspirants survives and joins the RG. Even then his skin becomes as pale as a corpse and his eyes and hair become jet black (I think I recalled reading somewhere all RG have a failed organ). Or Mutating into a wulfen. Or going into the Black Rage.

I think I'll take my chances better with the glowing eyes and tanned skin thank you.

Deepstriker said:

But from a High Lords point of view why would you use any of the above's geneseeds these days to start a new chapter?

I also think that weird pigmentation is probably a lot more common in the Imperium than is generally assumed. There's been plenty of time for disparate populations to have that happen pretty much naturally.

Face Eater said:

I meant it as alternative to the Ultramarine geneseed, by which seems to be the most stable. Given another choice, I think I'd go for the Sally geneseed if push comes to shove.

Face Eater said:

Importantly, the Salamanders appear to have a 100% loyalty rating...more than can be said for the geneseed of just about any other chapter.

Many Ultramarines successors have rebelled against Terra over the MIllenia, along with Blood Angels successors (Lamenters), White Scar successors (Mantis Warriors), Imperial Fist successors (Executioners), Raven Guard (Revilers), Dark Angels (a large chunk of the original legion, plus arguably the Astral Claws, depending on the source of their geneseed). Plus some Space Wolves went over to Lufgt Huron's corsairs during a boarding action against one of their ships. I'm not aware of any Iron Hands or their successors going renegade, but they are known for destructive internal dissent over doctrinal issues - look at the Sons of Medusa.

Of course, this could be something to do with the lack of successors, but personally I believe that the background hints very strongly that the Salamanders are an unsually calm, wise and unflappable chapter, far less prone to the prideful posturing of other marines.

As such, cosmetic mutations aside, (or what the Adeptus Terra believe to be cosmetic mutations) I would say they'd be ideal candidates for successor chapters. Which begs the question, "why no successors?"

I did mention it above, but one possibility is that they have mutated progenoids, meaning that they can only be harvested at the Marines death, in contrast (perhaps, this is all speculative) to other more fecund chapters who can regrow their progenoids. I mean, we know that other marine organs can degrade over millenia (the Imperial fists have famously lost a couple) so why not progenoids too? Perhaps, alternatively, the slamanders only have one progenoid, and as such have a cripplingly low rate of renewal. It would explain their low numbers and their lack of successors. I know others have posited the high casualties at Isstvan as a possible explanation, but given that 10,000 years has elapsed since then, I can't see that being enough. The Iron HAnds and Raven Guard had the same problem, but seem to have bounced back with many successors over the years.

Deepstriker said:

And indeed Mr Lightbringer.

You would choose knowing what you do now, however much of that happened after the 21st founding or Badab. By then they already had a large number of BA successors that were deteriorating (initially neither the BA nor their initial successors showed signs of the Black Rage did they), they had tried once (at least by current records) with the SW, with disasterous results. And the RG successors don't seem to have shown any ill effects.

There should have been Salamanders successors by then even with a cosmetic mutation but we don't have complete records of the time. But if the rumours that the Black Dragons are successors and they developed obvious spiky mutations then it's plausable that something similar has happened before. And while the Dragons are quite happy to fight for the Emporer as they are, increasingly spiky successors is not a route the High Lords want to go down.

Face Eater said:

True. The Black Dragons are a fairly difficult chapter to draw any conclusions from, though. It's never been outright stated that they're a Salamander's successor chapter, only hinted. Plus, they were part of the "cursed" 21st Founding, a founding where extensive genetic tampering seemed to be the norm. Chapters like the Lamenters, Black Dragons and especially the Flame Falcons show signs of having their geneseed fundamentally altered during creation, so any flaws may have arisen as a result of ill-advised tampering at this stage rather than any flaws with the genseed itself.

Lightbringer said:

Also true, and you would have thought they would have had to have tried before the 21st founding. What I forgot to say, entirely speculation at this point mind, is that it's possible that they were previous chapters whose records have been lost, or even completely failures that showed similar or worse traits.

Here is another possible reason;

A Codex Astartes chapter can only have 1000 members, if the matured Progenoids of all Marines are harvested, where are they stored? A Chapter Homeworld, Asteroid, or Fleet would seem to be the answer, where they can be stolen or destroyed by the grim dark future.

If the matured Progenoids are left in Marines, it ensures that the Chapter, or its remanants, should the grim dark future rear its ugly head, carry with them their future survival.

Progenoids don't kill people, Marines in Power Armour kill people...

Farceer said:

Hence why the geneseed repositories of any given Chapter are the single most heavily-armoured and well-protected of locations. Remember, even if the Chapter does leave the progenoids in until death, they still need somewhere to store those that've been removed from the dead until they can be cultivated into the distinct organs.

Brilliant, Farceer! For a vile xenos space elf, you've hit the nail right square on the head, I do believe .....that makes sense; indeed, where would they be safer?

Thanx for the input!

Lightbringer said:

Appears seems to be aptly used. Apparently, Salamanders do and can turn traitor. Cerbius Iagon from the Tome of Fire trilogy betrayed his battle brother and former sergeant Zek Tsu'gan to the renegade sorcerer Nihilan (who was once a Salamanders Librarian).

Since the Dragon Warriors have not ben proven as a successor of the salamanders, it ould seem that the salamanders do not have any successors.
Thus the statement of seemingly 100% loyalty rating can't be proven this way.

The salamanders are like any other ordinary founding chapter. Even the Raven Guard have traitors too.

Deepstriker said:

Perhaps there is a political reason why the Salamanders have few successors. The Salamanders are known to be the most humane of all the Space Marines, always protecting the weak. Perhaps the High Lords of Terra are not too fond of these "soft" Salamanders...