Hello

I've been lurking for some time but decided to register. So hello everybody.

I've wanted to ask abouth your experience with minions. We are playing BC since it got into our hands by adporing ours PC from RT and acumulated 16k xp (In realty we spend 11k xp since we stared as RT classes). I'm playing swordsman type RT with big Fell and WS, also I'm Champion of Slaanesh. So i though abouth taking mionion. Since I'm so great no ordinary mionion will be enough for me, so it must be CSM! But then the horror had begun. I have only 250 stats point for superhuman warrior so no fell, no per, no int, medicore agi, just to make Minion which have WS,BS,S,T in 40. I've got bored in the middle and droped making minion, becouse it doesn't look like it would be worthy to buy as talent and i'm speaking abouth Greater Minion! In fight with me or any of my ''friendly" PC, he would be tearn down in few rounds.

So what do you thing abouth minions system in the game.

Cheers

Firstly, there's a reason minions are minions instead of PCs. The PCs are the evil masterminds, the ones whose meeting with the hero would mean an epic boss-fight in an extremely cool locale (top of a castle, running factory, inside a cave in front of the McGuffin, in the warp) while the minions are those who can terrify a helpless populace, but get slaughtered by the dozens once they're up against the hero. Even a greater minion is not and should never be the equal of a PC.

That being said, I think the minion rules would benefit from granting minions a starting value of 10 in every characteristic, with the option to drop that to -- for minions that have absolutely no use for the characteristic while increasing another by 5, before you start spending points.

Minions are incredibly useful. One player in our party wants to be the 'face' and only the face, high fellowship and other non-combat type characteristics (we used the 100 pt. buy system). He uses combat focused minions to fill in his weaknesses, so he can still contribute in combat even though his ws and bs are total dump stats. Fits his character too - why risk his own neck when he can convince others to do it for him? In fact with natural armor 8, regeneration 6, unnatural toughness 4, and the like the minion is the best tank out of all of us.

Also, you could get a pet Psyker or Sorcerer as a Greater Minion. There are MANY obvious bonuses to having a pet psyker, but the easiest one is of course the pocket buffer - hey sorc, could you do that profane symbol thing you do and get something on me? Warptime please... yes yes, push, I know you can handle it. Ah, unnatural ws bs and agility 12 (or more)? Thanks, ok sit over there and concentrate on it now.

Well, I've tried to make unbound psyker and it came preaty good. So I agree they are uselfull. Althrough I still think that you must make them 1 dimensional, very stupid and uncharmfull warrior, weak sorcerer. But it's necessery I think as Cifer said they are not heros.

On the other hand i've wanted to ask abouth traits that minions get. Let's say you can get regeneration (1-5) what's keeping you from always taking 5? I've seen in the book that only unatural stats are restricted by stat bonus. What abouth others trait?

Jerrith can you give stats for that warrior, becouse I think that stats of warrior type of minion are weird. I've did stats for CSM and it seems wrong:

WS 40 BS 40 S 30 T 30 Ag 30 Int 20 Per 10 WP 38 Fell 1

So WS/BS/S/T/Ag/WP which are his main are ok but, Int 20? Is he stupid? Will he understand what im talking to him? Per 10? Blind? Deef? Fell!! He don't speak and don't beheave?

All depends on how you look at them.

If you're a simulationist, you will absolutely hate the minion rules, as they create totally unrealistic, gimped characters that can't do anything outside of their chosen field of competence, to the point where you'll question their ability to tie their own shoelaces. You'll also RAAAGE at the fact that the rules actively punish you for taking a human guardsman as a Minion rather than a flying mutated robot demon or something like that (the thing with Traits that you mentioned).

If you're a narrativist, you might find them OK. This CSM guy doesn't need to speak or perceive things, he's only there to shoot whatever target you point him to - his is the story of a faceless mook. If your less than social character wants a personal herald to do the talking for him, it doesn't really matter if the guy could die from someone farting too loudly in the same room, does it? It even matches the classic trope of shooting the messenger. You may balk at your minions being pretty flat, but they're only sidenotes in your story, so it should be alright.

As a gamist, you should love those rules, as they allow you to quickly grab a lot of additional competence wrapped in customizable bags of meat. Minions are reasonably good at whatever you want them to do, they are generally cheaper than branching out outside your chosen field of competence, and you won't be screwed on action economy just because you wanted to participate in all kinds of challenges. Some options look really tasty - who doesn't want to have Warptime without risking blowing yourself up? Who can honestly say he doesn't want an extra reaper autocannon shooting at enemies? And, most importantly, who doesn't like expendable meat shields forcing the enemy to disperse fire among more targets?

It's all a matter of perspective. If your simulationist bent doesn't let you enjoy them, just assume they have higher scores in all the stats you had to dump, but for some reason always fail those tasks or outright refuse to do them for you. If it still rubs you the wrong way, well, tough luck.

Me, I'm going to abuse the crud out of those minion rules, and assume they are actually fully fledged characters at the same time. If suspension of disbelief is a problem, I'll suspend disbelief's head on a barbed chain attached to my loin cloth, like a true heretic should

Greater Minions are obscenely powerful. However, they are going to be screaming retards or physically helpless or somesuch. "ERRGGHHH DURRRRR *FOAM* FOR KAYOSS! YAAAY I'M HELPING!"

I think my favorite greater minion stat block is the soul-bound cyborg psyker child:

Stats: WS 1 BS 1 Str 8 Tou 40, Agi 40 Int 40 Per 40 Will 40 Fel 40

Wounds: 16

Skills: Awareness +20, Charm +20, Dodge +20,

Talents: Psy Power (Force Bolt, Mind over Matter, Force Storm), Diehard, Psy Rating 7.

Traits: Psyker, Soul-Bound, Stuff of Nightmares, Unnatural Willpower +4, Machine +6, Unnatural Toughness +4, Unnatural Fellowship +4

I intend to have them be sweet, charming little psyker kids who made a deal with a daemon that was in the form of an adorable fuzzy creature, to save themselves from the Black Ships, or whatever, but the price being that they have to fight for Chaos and their bodies are just shells. Buy em termie armor and they can soak 29 damage per hit, or 37 per hit when it comes to critical damage.

I've got a navigator in a stasis chamber for the time/materials I can get around to making it a brain in a box that flies the ship and gives assists on forbidden lore warp. That's pretty much all the little bugger will do aside from sit in a box mounted on one of my mechanderites on psyniscience over-watch so to speak.

But yeah, the rules as-is make them mostly awful for anything combat related

They really could have done better by making a set of templates to start from that grant appropriate minimum levels to build upon. This prevents scores of 01 in Characterisitics when no human - even an inept one - should reasonably have less than a 15 or 20.

Deinos said:

I've loled sir!

Much good stuff coming hear I think that i'm going to speak with my DM to make human minions be good in some case like fighter in CC and shooting. But normal in other like int 25 per 25... That way they won't be blinde, deef, uncharmfull idiots but normal humans and PC will be much better in thoes cases and it per or int won't be ussed.

So as we speak abouth minions type here your ideas abouth minions. I'm toying now about idea for few minions for my character:

Chaos ogryn, for bodyguard and meathsield when i'm gonna storm drednoughts:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/medium/renogpost.jpg

Priestes of cult of slaanesh on my ship who is also an psyker

Iron warrior smith - but it need atention of DM becouse with thoes rules i'cant make CSM who fight and make thinks with tech use, but such minion could cost more becouse it's really 2 greater minions

The easiest way is to assume the Int 10, Fel 01 Space Marine is actually not a retard, just too focused on following you into battle to be of any use outside it. Yes, it sucks for simulationists, but then, the scale of characteristics in Warhammer RPG has been completely out of sync with the fluff ever since WFRP 1e.

Morangias said:

Rubric Marine anyone? They probably have int 10 and fel 01. Also the obviousness of a pet CSM is okay but why not an armored mutant? CSM are way to willfull to have as a minion, a mutant or evena failed CSM wannabe (the CSM transformation left him a mongrel or without skin...)

crisaron said:

Mutants are fine and dandy, but minions are about style as well. Sometimes, you want to play a Slaaneshi Apostate and his traveling mutant freakshow. Sometimes, you want to be a Word Bearer Dark Apostle leading his trusty warband, and Minions are supposed to cover both.

The thing that irks me the most, though, is how I feel stupid for wanting to have a renegade guardsman as my minion when I could have taken a much more efficient gun servitor with Machine, Auto-Stabilized, Unnatural Toughness and Unnatural Ballistic Skill. Perhaps Flyer as well. It'd be nice to be able to cash in Traits for extra Talents, Skills or Characteristic Points. I know there's this sidebar telling me to just wing it in such cases, but I don't like winging it when they could have provided rules instead.

I am playing a slaaneshi apostate and one thing I wanted to do was have a snake familiar with the thought I could level it up later on as I grow my powerful, so this is the lesser tier, how does it look?

Name: Nahash

Rank: Lesser Minion

Weapon Skill (WS): 30
Ballistic Skill (BS): 01
Strength (S): 20
Toughness (T): 20
Agility (Ag): 20
Intelligence (Int): 05
Perception (Per): 02
Willpower (WP): 01
Fellowship (Fel): 01

Traits:
Size (2): AGLB-2, -20 BS, +20 Stealth
Natural Weapon: 1d10+2 R, Primitive (7)
Toxic (1): -10 T test or take 1d10 damage (ignores TB and Armor)

Skills:
Dodge (AGL)
Stealth (AGL)
Acrobatics (AGL)
Tracking (INT)
Linguistics (Low Gothic)(INT)

Talents:
Berserk Charge: +30 WS when charging
Heightened Sense (Smell): +10 to tests involving Smell
Lightning Reflexes: Roll Twice for Initiative, take the highest
Mimic: Can Copy Voices (The GM allowed it as it my pet and it isnt very smart right now, just can repeat some words and such)
Sure Strike: -10 WS for called shots

Weapons:
1d10+2 R, Primitive (7), Toxic (1)

Wounds: 4

½ Move: 1
Full Move: 2
Charge: 3
Run: 6

Is there anything I should change? Or is this a good example of using the rules to make a snake familiar?

Not sure if you didn't mix something up, but it seems legit.

Minons are a bit broken, un-natural stats up to their modifier for one trait? Pet Psykers, that are literally throw away able super buff machines?

Idk how to fix the rules but something needs to be done, they're suppose to be mooks, and last time I checked mooks aren't suppose to be awesomeness. Perhaps they should've made the player pay extra xp for certain traits and limit the un-natural stats to +1 per talent/+2 per talent/ +3 per talent depending on the degree of minion. Perils of the Warp should also affect the player as well the minion. After all didn't one 1k Son affect all the CSM mooks when he fooked up his spell?

Idk anymore. I guess it's up to trusting the players not to make overpowered minions or make them pay extra xp to bring back minions.

Manyfist said:

I think a problem is that there are some low powered types of minions that its actually hard to make, like just a typical human civilian with 25 average attributes and now special powers. On the other hand, if you min-max a minion and utilize the traits, you can make an extremely powerful and/or useful minion.

I think that some kind of system where you get more attribute points and then spend them to buy traits might be better, where the more powerful the trait the more attribute points that you need to spend to acquire them. Or just give traits an experience point value and give lesser, normal, and greater minions a certain number of experience points to spend to get skills, traits, talents, and attributes.

Sergeant Brother said:

Spending XP for minions attribute points is genius. Then certain traits and the number would be unlocked and depending on the amount you spend on a minion or minions. This of course all depends on the class of such minion. I hope when the Errata comes out something like this is thought of.

Morangias said:

Rather than a full points buy I think I would rather have had certain archetypes who you chose from and had a different pool of talents and traits to buy from (so Servitor/Servo skull, Human, Animal, Daemon, Space Marine etc). Human type characters would have higher base stats (15 or 20) than most of those (reduced points to spend to compensate, but ending up with slightly more in the end) but would have a very small selection (or no) traits to choose from. I also don't like the whole "choose from any value" listed thing, as basically you are asking players to gimp themselves if they are not taking some hideous monstrosity with the highest numbers of the traits and the maximum allowed. Maybe include them in the same pool that you can purchase talents from or something.

Durr... I see most of my points have already been made.

For the campaign I'll be running, I'll probably offer the option of exchanging a trait for a talent.

Running a dark crusade one off we said that you can swap a trait for +10 characteristics points and another skill advance, so human minions without traits are more broadly useful due to their wider skill set and not thicker than a starships hull.

How do you even make a psycher minion? You have to spend xp to buy powers. Where does that xp come from?

Morangias said:

You could still take the renegade guardsman, he just happens to have extensive bone-bracing (auto-stabilized), demon-flesh and machine-gibbins added to him, and his skin and eyesight have been mutated by chaos gifts. Still the same character, just with the traits added in and making sense.

As for the Minions being over-powered, just like any overly minmaxed character or idea that a player has, it is the GMs final say, and probably the reason most players wont have the uber-psyker-buffer-death vortex. If the game is on a feral death world, do you really think the thousand sons librarian dreadnaught is going to be okayed when you take the talent, or the dung sniffing shaman? And yes I know saying the GM can fix it is a bit of a cop-out, it is really their job to keep pun-pun out of the game as much as to keep the game going and provide structure.

Lecram said:

Technically, a Psychic Power is a Tier 1 talent, so you can get them out of the minion's talent allowance.

The Psyker Trait is only available for Minions (so no lesser Minions). Also the Psy Rating talent is rank 3, so only Greater minions can have it. Minions of Chaos with psyker are there solely for Psyniscience. As psychic powers are talents they will also be buying their psy rating and their pschic powers from the same pool (11... so they can be ok. Maximum Psy rating of 4 if willpower is maxed out, and so they could have 7 choices of psychic powers, as long as they meet the prerequisates).

So what can you get out of a Lesser Minion? I'm starting a new game with a social-focused Apostate who's highest combat trait is the ability to dodge. Can I even get a combat/defense oriented Lesser minion, or am I looking at more of a servo-skull with a bunch of knowledge skills I don't have?