theguildllc said:

Normally, it works better if you highlight the raised portions, and use shading in the nooks and crannies. It deliniates the details much better.

I don't know if I should be amazed or appalled that someone would be silly enough to suggest an online poll with me as a subject. Not because of the lack of statistical validity for an online poll, but simply that someone would be so incensed because my attitudes are different that they felt the need to attack me.

I have opinions, and I'm willing to share them. When I have a point, I try to use concrete evidence and examples to support it. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and I never expect anyone to have to share mine. I would have thought you would be simply skipping every post with my name, as suggested on another thread, well before now. It might help you deal with my style.

Oh, and I also found it very interesting the first time I learned about the makeup of a rhino's 'horn.' Knowledge is interesting, and can come back around in a variety of ways.

I enjoy learning about other people's opinions, and can respect even those that disagree with mine if I can understand where they are coming from. That's not a bad attitude to take when dealing with people on the internet, as it causes far less frustration.

@ greyknight ooh, ooh, i doo cause its the interweb and exists only for my entertainment.

@gimp 'incensed'? no no, entertained is more like it. I enjoyed the rants of GIK quit a bit. too bad he's gone.

the ignore button doesnt exist and even if it did, i just cant quit you. besides, its too much fun seeing how much time and effort you put into your posts. till they get to the point they no longer concern the topic of the thread at all.

and thats a good tip about the shading and highlighting. would love to see some of your work.

theguildllc said:

I'm glad you get some entertainment from my posts. I used to try and post short and concise thoughts, but found I had to keep going back to explain things. Verbosity at least gives me more chance for clarity.

I'm retired, so I have plenty of time to wander the forum and talk about whatever interests me.

Hans Chung-Otterson said:

0/10

I dont think they sexualize ENOUGH in DT!

I'm going to model armor boobs on all of my walkers!

This is a silly post. ALL of the figures in virtualy all of the games I've played have been Heroicaly proportioned, male AND female! Yes Sigrid has Pop'n tata's, but just look at Bazooka Joe, strong chin, Supermans wavy hair, Heroic pose ( okay, okay, the art not the mini- the mini looks like Forest Gump!)

Its about fantasy! The males are what we WANT to be, the females are what we WANT to have! Fictional games, like books, and movies, and TV, and ect. is about ESCAPISM, being in a larger, louder, more attractive place thats not WHERE WE ARE!

If it bothers anyone that much, just use NECRONS for stand ins- theres NOTHING sexualized about them!!!!!

Have fun blow'n stuff up!!.......but no naughty thought while you do!!!

At first, Gimp, your posts rubbed me the wrong way.

But Ive come learn that you usualy have a point thats at least mostly valid in ALL of your posts.

I may not agree with you valid point, but it IS there! ( if I can stay awake for the entire post ) But sometimes you can come off as a TEENSY bit patronizing. But I think its kind of endearing! Like everyones favorite grumpy grampa!!

I'm playing with you! You might have noticed, I'm not usualy very serious when I talk on the Inter-Tubes!

I love this game, and I think the diversity of the people who play it and love it as much as I do, with all of there vews and foibles, makes this forum and hobby an interesting place to play!.... when I'm not CRUSHING them mercilessly on the table-top!!!!

Have fun blow'n stuff up!

Major Headcase said:

I have no problem with escapism or goofy fun! Or sex! Or sexiness/nudity/kink. I do have a problem with the above sentiment--we want to BE the guys and HAVE the women? That's pretty toxic, man*, and no wonder there's so few women wargaming if this is a prevalent attitude (it may not be, but in my experience with wargaming boards on the 'net it is). Or maybe it's just because wargames are too complicated for women and well, girls don't like violence anyway?

*At the same time, efidm, I'm not trying to **** on you: I'm just calling that sentiment out as, well, sexist, and not good for gaming.

Hans Chung-Otterson said:

BUAHAHAHAHAHA! Who's being sexist now??!!

Major Headcase said:

There is no intent to be patronizing, but the internet can make things read far different than they're meant. I go for verbosity because it usually makes my intent more clear, though I've seen a few spectacular failures.

As for being a grumpy grampa, well, I'm old enough to be one for several forum members, I've got the cane and a wheelchair, and I defnitely have no problem saying what I think about something, so it could work... Grampa Gimp, Grandpa Gimp, Papa Gimp, something else perhaps, maybe it's an excuse for another meaningless internet poll....

As you said, an internet forum is a fascinating place to see what others think about the games we love. We don't have to agree, but the dscussion can definitely make us think.

@Hans, Some of the most violent and capable wargamers I know are women, as well as some of the smartest gamers I know. I noted before, one of the issues I've seen for female gamers is a dislike for the patronizing and ridiculous attitudes many male gamers throw at them. Why bother playing at a store where they either get drooled over or treated like a moron when they can simply play somewhere else with people that treat them like they're real gamers?

As for the Major's comment, while it's spoken from a male perspective, it holds just as true for women. We play games for fun, whether it's for the challenge, the fluff, the comraderie, or anything else, we're getting away from our regular lives and having fun while we pretend. That isn't toxic unless you force the interpretation on it, kind of like turning heroes into porn stars, but without the possible fun intent.

Embrace the Boobs and celebrate the female form, please lets not let wargaming go political correctness mad or the day of the Dwarf might be over, sorry i meant person with a height impediment

Loophole Master said:

That's called sarcasm. But yeah, it doesn't come across to well on the 'net.

Not too well at all. Emoticons are your friend.

This subject is a minefield of a discusion. The statement I made was reffering to the mass media idea behind modern games and movies, and television-not my own personal view on the subject- my view is I usualy dont notice or simply dont care.

We are talking about sexism and the objectification of women in the game, we could use the same argument for violence, and the veneration of war.

Is'nt it just as bad that the game promotes killing and warfare? That it promotes and re-ignites historical national devisions?

By the safe interpritation of what is "appropriate" in our PC society, All of the characters would be sexless, and there would be no weapons, or national identity used in the game. No gorillas ( cruelty to animals ), No Zombies ( disrespect of assorted burial and religous beliefs ), You see where this can go?

And I dont think a table top game force of Diplomatic Grenadiers, Negotiation Rangers, and Non-violent protest Walkers, led by Terry Smith the Bland would be very fun!

Have fun trying to peacfully reconcile your differences with out resorting to violence, or offending any-one in any-way!!!

Major Headcase said:

Good point! I'd love to talk about this more! But it's a different discussion, and where we fall on the "but is imaginary warfare bad?" scale doesn't necessarily correspond with how we fall on the "is sexism in our games bad?" scale.

Major Headcase said:

I think it's funny how people took my original comments as wanting the game to be "PC" or "appropriate". Not at all. I'm just pointing out problematic depictions--I'm not saying sex is bad, or titillation--but rather that making one gender the object of titillation (an historically oppressed one, at that), and not the other is problematic.

Plus, the slippery slope argument here doesn't sit well with me. When someone starts crying about how DT is terrible because of "cruelty to animals", well, we can discuss that then. You can't use it as a straw man to knock down claims of problematic gender depiction. Again, the problems in the OP are getting lumped in with some generic and hazily-defined "appropriateness" or "political correctness" that isn't at all what I was talking about.

this is a problem i have had with miniatures games. i have plenty of women in my life that game. one of the things that makes me a little sad is that when we get together to play an rpg that the selection for female characters is lame. you really have to go out of your way to find good female character minis, i do this and still i have a lame selection. this is unfortunate becuase tactical rpgs are sort of a gateway to minis games i would love to have more women in wargaming.

i think maybe a little role reversal is a good idea. what if the men in dust tactics were all posed and dressed simular to a ladies fireman calender. how comfortable would you be with it? "hey guys check out Joe's thrusting pelvis and rippling peks, I spent a whole lot of time highlighting those!"

Hans Chung-Otterson said:

It isn't that strange if you look back at what you wrote.

"Okay, FFG & Dust Studio, what's the deal? In the original release (I can't speak of other models; I haven't looked at 'em yet) of the game, why is Sigrid, the female hero, sexualized (balloon boobs bursting out of her fur coat), whereas the male hero, Bazooka Joe, isn't? Is someone baking a cheesecake? Seriously folks, it's 2011. Let's stop this ****."

It certainly suggests you considered their model of Sigrid to be inappropriate and needing to be changed to match some wonderful new concept for 2011. When the model in question is not even a major case of cheesecake modelling, it suggests someone who is overreacting for little reason other than to troll, or because of an overabundance of a PC mentality. The post was also based on an initial evaluation of a single model , rather than the line as a whole, which suggests knee-jerk reactionism instead of someone trying to make a valid complaint. That, as well, is a hallmark of the PC mentality, with people being highly offended over ridiculous minor things that sometimes don't even concern them.

I'm disabled. I am not 'ableness challenged,' and find the pretentiousness of that terminology offensive. I was able, was injured, and became disabled. Simple, yet elegant English that fits nicely. No reason to hide the concept to make it more palatable. You may find many disabled people with similar attitudes. I certainly have. Suggesting that women need male cheesecake out of fairness or balance is ridiculous, because if women wanted cheesecake miniatures for gaming, they would get it. Miniatures companies have both male and female sculptors, and understand the concepts of both supply and demand if they wish to remain profitable. Some of the biggest cheesecake females I've seen through the years were sculpted by women.

It was pointed out that the male heroes do not need to be calendar cheesecake to appeal to women, because women tend to be less visually stimulated than men, and more concept stimulated. I tried to make that point using Han Solo and Princess Leia as examples. Han worked quite nicely for most women, while men liked Leia in the slave bikini. Han in a slave speedo would not have had the same impact, because whether people like it or not, men and women think differently. Neither one less effectively than the other, but differently, none the less. Don't trust Wikipedia as more than a starting place to suggest places to look, but the study data is out there.

Sigrid being willing to use her sexuality as an additional weapon is also not automatically adding to the oppression of women. Sigrid's combat uniform does not even accentuate her sexuality very much, as has been pointed out with comments about seeing women in church or the general public showing as much or more than Sigrid does. Being comfortable showing your body is not the same as being oppressed because of your gender. There are many real women quite willing and capable of doing that, so if a character is developed that way as a series villainess, it would be ridiculous to portray her as prim and proper. I have never been able to consider inch tall miniatures much for titillation, anyway, but my opinion on such matters is only that.

TylerT said:

Where have you been looking? Reaper Miniatures has a very large line, and while they have cheesecake for both male and female characters, they also carry some very nice figures that are simply obviously male and female. Anima has a selection with and without cheesecake, as well. DUST figures aren't really much for cheesecake, but they also won't fit most fantasy RPG's very well, nor do they have many female figures.

Miniatures wargames do tend to go for more cheesecake than RPG's, but the market carries what the consumers want, and the average age for miniatures gamers is younger than for RPG's. Younger audiences tend to prefer more cheesecake in their miniatures.

I've worked with miniatures games that included significant cheesecake for the male figures, and found male gamers tended to be less interested, or even put off by them. The female gamers were rarely as worried about cheesecake as they were about cool looking, so cool cheesecake was no better than cool without the cheese for them. While women have been coming in to gaming more and more, there are still more males, so figures that don't appeal to the largest market are going to be less common.

Cheesecake miniatures are harder to make, because it's harder to make the physique look right, so why make it if it is harder to make, and won't improve sales? Miniatures companies are in this as a business, so they're going to make what they can build and maintain a business with. Make good stuff, that will attract customers, and doesn't cost much more than something else that would do as well, is a simple idea that works for any business.

Ripped abs and pecs are easy to see in the media, so any miniature showing them will quickly show any errors the sculptor made. Because of physiology, females don't get fully ripped as easily as males, so there is less danger in a female figure showing skin looking wrong. Again, you have reason for more female characters showing skin than male characters looking mutated.

Well this one shook the apple tree, every girl including my wife has always asked me why the females are all so well endowed in my collection what ever the game. Howeve, they all liked their characters and were pleased they had a female miniature. It's not realy so long ago that male characters in many games were the only ones on offer. Thing is, companys like Black Cat Bases now do some natural looking people, male, female and children Their cat lady is a street person with kittens in her bags. Also on offer is an extremely over weight woman eating pie, and many more.My wife, Eileen ,can have the last sentence - " Heros are larger than life!" Enjoy Dust, it has potential and this forum will never be boring . Night All.

vengeance000 said:

I'll one up you further: Find a woman painted on the side of any bomber, fighter, or tank during WWII that isn't sexualized...

vengeance000 said:

Pretty much any and all of the females from the MERCS tabletop game. The closest thing you'll find is the limited edition sculpt of Kat, the girl under the Incinerator's armor. Even then... not really sexualized at all.

So... any prize for finding a tabletop game in which the women aren't pure cheesecake or running around in boobplate armor?

asbestos said:

Heh, notice you didn't ask for a prize for finding a low sexualized mini with the braless thin T-shirt look with the blowing hair. You know, the young and fresh look.

Algesan said:

Well, the LE mini was the MOST sexualized mini that I could find from MERCS. Kat's gender is pretty undefined when she's in her armor.

The other females in the game:

Well, in Dust itself, Lara is very non-sexualized. It's pretty hard even telling she's a woman (specially my model, which came with the nose chopped off.)

It is pretty awesome we live in a time and society where women can protrayed as a bad-ass in any type a game and are no longer the weak victim who needs a man to run in and save them.