Let me preface this by saying: I really like this game!

Okay, FFG & Dust Studio, what's the deal? In the original release (I can't speak of other models; I haven't looked at 'em yet) of the game, why is Sigrid, the female hero, sexualized (balloon boobs bursting out of her fur coat), whereas the male hero, Bazooka Joe, isn't? Is someone baking a cheesecake? Seriously folks, it's 2011. Let's stop this ****.

(feel free to point out to me any male characters that are sexualized, and any female ones that aren't!)

I think the figs are all based on the comic, so.... yeah....

Also, if you are up for trading or selling Sigrid, let me know, I need another one.

I don´t fully understand what your ponit is...

Well the game is based upon a pin-up comic, you will also find ladies with big round breasts in pretty much all wargame miniature ranges, some even dressed as nuns.

Heh, go look at 40k's Sister of Battle with their "Here, look, I have armor that guides stuff that hits in the middle of my chest right into my heart" power armor.

Face it, mostly guys play wargames and they like their women with large breasts. Small waists don't hurt either. I mean it doesn't mean we have a fixation or anything... <swiftly hides the wedding picture>

I'll do ya one better. Find a woman in any video game, miniatures game, or comic book that isn't sexualized...

Hans Chung-Otterson said:

By the very fact that the characters are male and female, they are sexualized. That's what the male and female identifiers mean. The world is not androgynous, however much some few people might like it to be. I'd suggest you learn to deal with it, as I don't notice many androgynous clothing stores doing very well these days.

As noted, DUST is from a pin-up comic, so expect pin-up. It's based on the major pin-up era , so expect pin-up. It mixes soldiers, wargames, and comic books, all bastions of pin-up, so expect pin-up. For what it is and represents, it's rather mild in its cheescake.

PC does not belong everywhere, nor is there reason to insist on it. If you are offended, use alternate miniatures, or find another game. Insisting DUST conform to ridiculous puritan PC perogatives is much more offensive than any level of cheescake shown in DUST, including the comics. Please get over it. FFG & DUST are not wallowing in anything, but you appear to be, right here in 2011.

Sigrid is showing cleavage, but I've seen more from some women going to church. Females do have breasts, and many in positions of power have been happy to use them to put people off guard, or make them more easily distracted and controlled. Some women are simply happy to show that they conform to some nominal level of beauty, and one should never insist they do otherwise, just as one should never insist a woman dress more revealingly than they want to. Their freedom of expression is as valid as that of someone who wants to dress obscured in androgyny.

Miniatures games sell more to guys, where sexy sells, but they also get an extra boost because of the scale. Reasonably proportioned female miniatures tend to be hard to notice as female, or men as muscular heroes, if the features aren't accentuated, so that adds to it.

On the flip side, women tend to not be as visually stimulated as men, so Bazooka Joe or the Priest as the dashing rogue that's fully clothed can work quite nicely for them due to character as someone sexy. You may have noticed that many women have liked Han Solo through the years, even if only Princess Leia wore a bikini. My wife is very fond of good looking men in suits, and Han Solo, without me feeling threatened. Sigrid is not too likely to break up any marriages or relationships that don't have significant other issues.

For non-sexual DUST women, Lara is not trying to win any hottie contests. Rosie is a tank top and overalls kind of girl, which will appeal to some, but not to others. There could be several others, as the body armor does what body armor normally does, and conceals the wearer's sexuality. Lara is known to be female only due to her name and description, though her hair cut would not be appropriate for a male soldier. It's a little hard to say on other miniatures this size whether they have adams apples, or not, and most wear head gear that conceals their hair.

As an aside, if you are offended to play with obviously female miniatures, I don't expect you will find many miniatures or video games that will not offend you.

When I read the dust comic book i get that gross "grampa's a racist" feeling. yeah it's 110% pin up, pulp in the good and bad ways.

As for the men being sexuallized I think guys are sort of a bad judge? i once saw a girl go off on what GW space marines "did" for her.

it is telling that all the USA guys basically have porn star names. at least most of the girls have leadership positions and kick ass.

It's unfortunate but i actually find dust tactics to have some of the least icky minitures of the games out there. minitures games just tend to take things to the extreme, i dont know if that means were a culture of frustrated man children or if no one has had the guts to release a minis game with subtly.

Ok I figured this one out a while back when rosie came out. The only reason Sigrid looks like she does is b/c shes a depiction of the comic version of herself and name me a comic that doesnt eventually made some of the women look like Sigrid depending on the artist. On top fo that look at most other miniature games: 40k has busty girls and even has nude dark eldar sex slaves(they got rid of them but you can find them and put a top of them) you could make them all look like the Catachan but that would be weird, Warmachine has a lot of women the same way as Dust, On the other hand shes the only one who is sexualized unless your into furies and Markus turns you on with his big pex hahahaha. Rosie, Lara, Totemiester, and Angela do not look anything like Sigrid modelwise. If bet when they come out with the Koshka model she'll look the same only bc the comic look that way. They would do Mickey but she's apparently dead when Tactics happens. The Dust girl that they show on the Dust Models website is just a pin-up girl looking person. Read up on your 1930-1950s people were all into that. My grandfather for one had a bunch in his army trunk. Germans are also very odd about that kinda stuff too. For example the original Barbie doll was actually a weird sex doll.

I respect your idea of the stuff being this way but it's the way it is. If you're a girl most gamers are guys about 20% are girls in the board/tabletop/card game world. You here the increase in more women gamers they are talking about video games.

TylerT said:

Do you, perhaps, get some similar strange form of guilt if you see a woman anywhere else and accidently think she's pretty, or dressed sexily? I would probably have to agree that some people can be a bad judge of sexualization, because otherwise this thread would not exist. My wife and daughter find no fault with the miniatures for DUST. They're both impressed with them.

The Allied guys have porn star names?

Bazooka Joe: The only people I've come across with this sobriquet before Joe were an old vet known for great accuracy and success with one, and a soldier in the Korean War that was teased because of the bubble gum by the same name (he had problems with the weapon, so they kept giving him the gum because they felt he could handle that). The tempermental nature of the weapon, and it's non-DUST requirement to have another guy help you with it, make it not a great choice for a porn star.

The Priest: Even with all of the problems the Catholic Church has been having in recent decades; this is not one I would expect any porn star to want.

OZZ 117: This one comes across as an homage to Hal- o, and not porn- o. The entire OZZ/Spartan 117 who gave up his name motiff. I doubt Master Chief would work for a porn star name, either, as it's simply a military rank.

Johnny One-Eye: For a guy who has lost an eye... You must be right, it has porn written all over it, in some strange alternate dimension where descriptive monikers can't make sense. Guess why I go by the forum name of Gimp...

Action Jackson: This one could work for a porn star, has for gansters, and stunt man, and adreneline junkies, or perhaps even a soldier who favors an in your face and agressive style of combat like some paratroopers I've known . Any person who deals with action could have 'Action' fit as a nickname. Nothing reserves it for porn stars except people who want to do a witch hunt for them everywhere.

Rhino: This one could work for a porn star, if you worked it hard enough, perhaps. The idea of someone who is armored and charges into combat to tear through reinforced vehicles, rather like the animal with the same name is known for, might be a more logical explanation. Rhino horn is used in some cultures as a suggested aphrodisiac, but not very often in cultures with porno industries. The Rhino is known as a near sighted, overly agressive, irritable animal, so I again have trouble picturing a porn star wanting the name. There are other animals known for sexual prowess and horns (with the rhino's not being an actual horn), that have a much better reputation with the general populace.

All of the women have leadership positions. Rosie is an NCO, and the lowest ranking of the Allied heroes (with the possible exception of OZZ 117, who has no rank noted). If you read her fluff, she's a technical genius mechanic (hence the name in probable homage to Rosie the Riveter). Rosie's rank is not a problem, however, as NCO is a leadership position, and master sergeant is one of the highest NCO ranks. There were technical ranks back then for elisted people who were not in leadership positions. The additional fluff available notes Totenmeister has an alien device allowing her to control and lead zombies. So all of the female heroines have leadership positions.

On a side note, you may want to work on your wording. Your last paragraph, as worded, says you find it unfortunate that DUST has some of the 'least icky' miniatures on the market. I doubt that was your intent. Perhaps washing your miniatures, or at least your mind, would help...

If you read my earlier post, you would realize there have been games that did not put emphasis on physical attributes for male and female figures, and that they were found to not have much impact on a gaming table. People weren't trying to have surrogate sex through their miniatures, but they wanted the men to look like men, and the women to look like women, without the need to pick them up to identify them.

I've met gamers that joked about the builds on both male and female miniatures, but rarely have I found people that were serious about it, until this silliness. Most people can accept that an inch tall miniature does not function well as a sex substitute. Perhaps, in the end, you can find some comfort in that.

arkangl said:

It does seem rather likely that a miniature of a character would attempt to be made to look like the character. While she wears different colors, and sometimes wears less, every time Sigrid goes into combat action in the comic, she wears a similar outfit. If they had not had her wearing that outfit for the miniature, I would have been very surprised.

I found Rosie, Lara, Angela, and Totenmeister to look amazingly like Sigrid. Two arms, one head, two legs, and while a variable level of easy identification as female, there's enough information for us to know.

Koshka will certainly be a miniature, but, she is more likely to look like Koshka in combat uniform than Koshka the prisoner. Again, it would make no sense to do otherwise. A model in the model line as Koshka the prisoner might work, but not for the wargame.

Mickey is mirrored in Rosie, as they both use the t-shirt and overall motiff as mechanics. There is an Axis model, Bianca, dressed similarly from the regular model line. It's like they think mechanics wear coveralls and t-shirts like some mechanics do.

To correct this before it enters too much into fantasy: the Barbie Doll has been altered and sold as a sex doll after market, and similar dolls have been made, but the actual Barbie Doll has been a fashion doll since its creation. Originally for young girls alone, as they grew up, some found they wanted fancier fashion dolls as room decorations, and the industry has grown to meet the demand. For many years, Barbie clothes werre required to be designed to remain ladylike. Barbie is not even a German doll. She was created by Mattel in the late 50's in the US. I'd suggest you make at least a pretense of checking facts before saying things that make you look foolish.

For another correction, women have been playing more miniatures games as time has gone on. They are not just increasing in numbers in the video game markets. Many of the female gamers I deal with tend to be cautious dealing with male gamers, because the male gamers have developed a reputation for being too strange in how they treat women. If you can't find female opponents, perhaps you should examine how strangely you view and treat females in gaming for probable clues.

Short answer - Sex sells !

"To correct this before it enters too much into fantasy: the Barbie Doll has been altered and sold as a sex doll after market, and similar dolls have been made, but the actual Barbie Doll has been a fashion doll since its creation. Originally for young girls alone, as they grew up, some found they wanted fancier fashion dolls as room decorations, and the industry has grown to meet the demand. For many years, Barbie clothes werre required to be designed to remain ladylike. Barbie is not even a German doll. She was created by Mattel in the late 50's in the US. I'd suggest you make at least a pretense of checking facts before saying things that make you look foolish." - Gimp

No you need to do you research and look up the Bild Lili doll Ruth Handler's children went to Germany and came back with on and she used that to make the image of Barbie. It even had a cartoon and all. I had to watch a documentary on this for an art class don't tell me to check my facts. If you even look up Bild Lili on Wikipedia it says and I quote:

"Lilli also inspired the production of another fashion doll of high quality who would soon outshine her: Barbie, produced by Mattel. Ruth Handler, one of the company's founders, bought some of the Lilli dolls when she was on a trip to Europe. Back home she reworked the design of the doll and renamed her Barbie, who debuted at the New York toy fair on March 9, 1959. Barbie had rooted hair and her shoes and earrings were not molded — apart from that she was a lookalike of Lilli. Barbie celebrated 50 years of continuous production in 2009."

and it was a sex doll (not the blow up kind)

"Although the doll was originally not designed as a children's toy, she eventually became popular with children."

In 1964 Handler ended up purchasing the rights to the doll so they wouldn't get confused and discontinued the Bild Lili doll.

"For another correction, women have been playing more miniatures games as time has gone on. They are not just increasing in numbers in the video game markets. Many of the female gamers I deal with tend to be cautious dealing with male gamers, because the male gamers have developed a reputation for being too strange in how they treat women. If you can't find female opponents, perhaps you should examine how strangely you view and treat females in gaming for probable clues." - Gimp

No I didn't say they aren't increasing I'm just saying it's not as big at the Video Game chicks thats at 40% when you hear gamer girls. My GF is one of these gamers she paints and plays 40k with me. There are quite a bit of girls in my store but there is a 1 or 2:10 girl/boy ratio and its that way in every store I've been in.

Hans Chung-Otterson said:

Have you checked out Lara? That woman scares me!!

I can see the pr0n connection.

"Bazooka" Joe - Big long weapon, you could take it that way. Way too many jokes about weapons & the male sexual organ.

Action Jackson - Yeah, maybe

Johnny "One Eye" - John, Johnny, Johnson are slang for the male generative organ, just older and not real popular, the "One Eye" does make the hint stronger.

Rhino - More of a reach, but hard, one horn, likes to charge in and bang you. Maybe.

Off that subject, Rosie is the replacement for the dead Mickey and yes, Rosie the Riveter jumped out immediately.

The Priest - Oh, I think that would be a kinkier flick that I could handle. Too much S&M implication there.

Gimp said:

I think it's unfortunate that as an industry there is so much ultra smut and ultra violence it's like the entire industry has one volume and that's 11. Dust is rather tame compared to some of the stuff i paint for clients, dust is just slightly more wild then a historical model kit and that's what i like most about it.

As for the comics the Dust Wars series is fine, the original DUST series is what makes me uncomfortable, something about combineing sex and violence in the same scene is just not my cup of joe, but hey if you like getting choked or whipped thats your busness and i'm not going to judge you ( well maybe a little bit). For my money pin-up girls need to be consenting.

The smutty stuff does make it harder for some to apreciate the hobby, i know many many female board gamers but far fewer female minitures or even role players. perhaps it's our endless rationalisation that will prevent this from ever changing?

I totally agree Tyler. I've painted some stuff for people for other games a lot worse. When I was in art school I inked in a manga comic some girl did for class that was a very obscene (will not describe).

Totally agree with the comic escpecially if you look at the concept art in the back I was like whoa hope no little kids read this. I on the other hand don't get turned on by perversion in art. Being either cartoon, comic, paintings, video games or even miniatures. Just something about it tells me its fake and don't see the point.

I would say the gaming companies could tone it down but I have no control of it and like i said with the whole barbie/bild lili dolls stuff like this is in every industry and every age group unfortunately. Some of it you just have to deal with it. I mean look at the Brats dolls those are the worse of worse in smut toys for little girls and the company had to tone them down.

arkangl said:

That clears things up a bit more, as you originally noted:

I respect your idea of the stuff being this way but it's the way it is. If you're a girl most gamers are guys about 20% are girls in the board/tabletop/card game world. You here the increase in more women gamers they are talking about video games

Which says something quite different.

TylerT said:

Wow, this thread exploded! I haven't read the whole thing, but I should say: yeah, I do think DT is actually pretty **** good & tame compared to most minis games. I had just been reading Go Make Me A Sandwich , & DT has been on my mind all weekend, so the two kinda intermixed.

My original issue stands, but I want to temper it with a "but DT does better than most".

And it's based on a pin-up comic? Whoa, I had no idea!

Algesan said:

There is a porn connection only if people try to make one. People decided there were witches in Salem, and lots of people died. Does that mean there really were witches, and the girls who caused it all were lying when they admitted they'd lied?

Bazooka Joe is also the name of the character from the Bazooka Bubble Gum comics. I gave two real world examples I've dealt with, one even tied to the gum, and have never heard of a porn example. I even pointed out why a porn actor would probably not want the sobriquet. Most male porn stars go for hyper masculine charicatures, and one that needs another guy's help to fire their weapon would not fit that.

Action Jackson fits too many character types to be singled out as being derived from a porn connection. 'Yeah, maybe' leaves a lot of room for, 'nope, probably not.' The most famous 'Action Jackson' would be a Carl Weathers movie character cop, and not a porn star.

Johnny One-Eye is a one eyed man with an extremely common name. A one-eyed man is simply a one-eyed man unless you have proff of guilt, or at least something that's slightly less of a stretch. Willie Nelson is a singer, not a porn star, even though willie is also an old nickname for a sex organ.

Rhinos don't charge in and bang you, they charge in and gore or trample you, and they don't actually do it with a horn. The Rhino's 'horn' is an overdeveloped hair structure, and not horn. What porn actor would want to use a name where people could tease they had to be fake because of it?

The Priest again only fits certain images, and not a general porn star sobriquet. The Priest as a priest/spy using the priesthood to justify being behind enemy lines is a lot more sensible interpretation, as well as one that fits both literary and historical people, perhaps including the DUST character. That might be too much coincidence, so perhaps the porn angle makes more sense.

DUST as a comic has imagery that is odd for many people in the US. That isn't strange, because it was not written in the US, nor is the writer from the US. The imagery from the comic has not been drawn across into the game beyond a limited amount for those same reasons.

im still amused because someone cited wikipedia as a legitimate source...ohhh kids these days. what are they teaching them? all that aside, it's a game folks. leave all the PC stuff behind or find something else to play if you dont like it.

it really is that simple

Lets start a poll: least fun poster. Grand Inquisitor Kris or Gimp. I still have to go GKI.

I TOOK GREAT PRIDE IN MAKING MY SIGRIDS BREASTS LOOK AS BIG AND LUSCIOUS AS A 2 INCH TALL PIECE OF PLASTIC COULD LOOK.

IF SIGRID BOTHERS YOU, I CAN'T WAIT TO HEAR WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY ABOUT ROSIE.

Doh! Fail. Ment GIK, but come to think of it, he does have some pertinent posts on BGG. While here we have a thread that started out essentially about Sigrid Von Thaler's cup size and had at one point the techinical makeup of a Rhinos horn. not fun.

Also, I highlighted the hell out of Bazooka Joe's every nook and crany.

"Lets start a poll: least fun poster. Grand Inquisitor Kris or Gimp. I still have to go GKI."

Ooh, ooh! I have a better one! Let's start a poll: Who thinks ad hominem attacks are a worthwhile expenditure of time!

In the end, Dust is a game based on a comic. Games are for fun. The art style of this game in particular is taken from the comic it is based on, which is pin-up girls and WWII walking tanks. While not everybody's cup of tea, this is also for fun. However, the Dust miniatures are nowhere near as *gasp* scandalous as the comic. Out of all of the miniatures, and out of a dozen characters, only four are female, and only two of those are obvious about it. Especially given the source material, that's not very many at all.

Sigrid and Rosie are both proportioned and dressed like their comic book counterparts. This makes sense; you wouldn't make a model of Marcus Fenix without his armor, or a Terminator that wasn't either a metal skeleton or looked like Schwarzenegger. Characters are designed to be iconic, and changing that icon to something unrecognizeable makes no sense. Again, given the icons in this case being translated to miniature format, Dust tactis has done a fine job of preserving the characters images without being lewd about it. I see more skin on the average gal at the mall than is showing on either Sigrid or Rosie.