Remember though, Space Marines don't win wars by themselves. They are troops that create a landing zone for the Imperial Guard to come down and beat the snot out of the hereteks.

Marines are shock troops. They would have a hard time taking a world and keeping it by themselves without support.

Many thousands of years ago after the Horus Heresy Marine chapters were broken down into 1000 man chapters specifically to avoid allowing them that kind of power.

They could put one hell of a dent in a world, but most likely they would eventually be overwhelmed by numbers.

+++++Remember though, Space Marines don't win wars by themselves.+++++

Yes they do. Because they are crazy hard. It is what makes them cool.

One thing it is worth remembering is that the commonly quoted 6 billion is given in US figures. A US billion is merely 1000 million, rather than 1000000 million (1 million million, or a bi-million, or billion), and so should more properly be a milliard. With that in mind, multiply the figures you're currently thinking of for hive populations by 1000, and see if that seems better.

You are certainly right that the sheer quoted size (assuming the artwork fits the written text) of Hive Sibellus puts it as too large for any ground-based structure. However, that is quite possibly a good thing- Larry Niven (among others) pointed out that the laws of thermodynamics mean that any civilisation which populates its' world to such a degree is going to have a serious problem with overheating (indeed, part of the premise of the Matrix is based on a related idea); with that in mind, a large, mostly empty structure which is good at radiating heat and protrudes a significant distance from the atmosphere might mean that the people living in those levels closer to the ground (say... within 2-5 miles of the mean planetary surface) won't necessarily be cooked.

I'll add that when I say cooked, I mean it literally- the surface temperature should be enough to melt lead, assuming a population density close to that quoted, on top of the heavy industry and infrastructure that seems to be a mandatory part of all hives.

And Dezmond- leave it out; that constant off-topic whining for and about space marines was why you were banned on the old boards. If you really feel the need to moan and beg for overpowered killy things, make a thread for it and keep it there. Please?

A million million?! No there's some creative problem solving outside the box! And it seems like it should work.

Multiplying 14 billion by a thousand will give 14 trillion (or a million millions ;-) ) which is close to the 18.8 trillion needed to have the pop density of new york (on one level).

However, something tells me that the authors didn't have the archaic meaning of billion in mind when they assigned the number to the population. usually when they use archaic terms, it's for atmosphere, and is quite obvious because of that. Saying "25 Billion" and meaning a million million sounds and looks just like saying "25 Billion" and meaning a thousand million.

And thanks for bringing this million million thing up. Up until now I always thought a billion was == to a billion. I now know there are exceptions... and some pointless number history because I had to look up what the heck you were talking about. Learn a new thing every day.

Thanks for intresting feedback so far! The billion/milliard/trillion designation is actually the explanation/excuse I used to end this little discussion with my players, however, I agree that it is most likely not the "real" explanation. The designers most likely felt that "25 billion is a lot!" and left it at that.

For a sense of perspective, if we take the description of tha base of Sibellus, and dump the structure on earth, it would look something like this:

At 8000 km across its base, Hive Sibellus is a monumental construct, its many spires towering above the clouds and it's unknown depths reaching deep into the planets core. Home to some 13,5 billion souls, it is Scintillas most populous and powerful city, it's many manufactoria producing everything from kitchen utensils to machines of war.

How much of such a structure is likely to be uninhabited? We've covered what sort of areas might not be used, but how large portion of the Hive will be "dead"?

Oh frak.

Maybe they meant the surface being 9000 square kilometers. Or it was supposed to be OVER NINE THOUSAND !!!!!11 as in the internet meme.

Or maybe they thought 9000 was a lot, and 25 billion was a lot too, so they gave it no thought.

dude,

that is awesome.

Personally I feel that more than 50% would be 'in use', but I lot of that would be vast warehouses, factories, highways, spaceports, etc that would have little human habitation and actually contain vast area of empty space. it also depends on how you would count the underhive and other marginal areas.

Alasseo said:

Except that the term milliard, and indeed, the "long" billion and its equivalent are rapidly falling into disuse in the English-speaking world, with the "US" version (which is used in the overwhelming majority of English-speaking nations), and for most purposes (such as the media and all official documentation) the short scale has been the officially accepted one in the UK since 1974..

I cant belibe how that a simple comment (mine) has spawned such a humongous post (wink, wink)...

Well, then we can resume the points about the population of Hive Sibellus:

• Hive Sivellus is HUGE.
• Not all of it is populated or even safe for human beings.
• The Adeptus Administratum suck at counting people.*
• It could be a typo.
• They writer used the " long scale " numerical system (something that makes some sense since they give all figures in Metric System).
• Its Warhammer 40.000! Numbers mean nothing to the Emperor, only the intention.

*And people who doesnt want to be counted, or supply boxes, ammunition, Baneblades, planets, etc.

The wiki gave me a headache, lol.

Ashen Victor said:

I really like that - thanks

Idaan said:

The book states 8 000, not 9 000.

But even so, 9 000 square kilometers is nothing. Thats a 95 by 95 km square or a circle 107 km across. Hardly something that "covers continents".

IMHO most of what a hive worlder eats on a daily bases consists of.

Locally grown (on planet) protein cultures (like in the matrix and myco protein from shadowrun). Protein blocks etc.

Hydroponically grown produce. Chosen for efficiency not taste. Fungus bread etc.

Massive and presumably very efficient recycling would aid in the above 2.

This would account for the vast bulk of the food consumed on a hive world.

I would also say that probably 20-25% of the population was somehow involved in these activities. Worked at the recycling plants etc.

The massive transports bringing food in every day would be bringing in "Luxury" food. The diet of a hive worlder (at least a lower class one) is probably VERY monotonous. Things like steaks and other "natural" foods would be considered delicacies.

Looking at it this way a hives population can become HUGE and not need 100 agri-worlds per hive world.

The way I look at it a hive world (if it deserves the name) has probably at least 500 billion people on it with 1 trillion of more common.

llsoth said:

Sorry, but that "very efficient" thing doesnt exist in the Imperium of Mankind, well, maybe in some arcane Tech-Adept vocabulary.

In the Grimm and Dark™ universe of Warhammer 40.000 only exist "it somehow works" and "praise the Emperor, it works!"

You have to remember that the Imperium of man is VERY technologically advanced. I know it does not seem that way with the artwork and they go to great lengths to give a different feel to it, but nonthless it is true.

Look at what they can do. Prothstetics that are as good as if not better than flesh and bone hooked directly to the nervous system are a common sight. FTL space travel, energy weapons, force fields, gravity manipulation, etc etc. Look at the lowly lasrifle, can you imagine the energy density of its rechargeable power pack?

In short the look and feel of the setting is very different than the described capabilities. If it helps you any look at it this way, all these crude looking incredibly high tech items are made by tech priests. Tech priests worship the machine god and thus choose to make their creatons look overtly mechanical as a sort of homage to the great cogboy in the sky.

Ashen Victor said:

You know that the STC is able to make tanks out of wood that would run on sand instead of fuel, right? And that they are indistinguishable from adamantium forged, promethium-fuelled Rhinos and Leman Russes?

Idaan said:

It's just a shame that all the Imperium (or rather, the Adeptus Mechanicus) have to go on in regards to STCs are printouts of the designs, rather than the STC systems themselves.

Idaan said:

I´d prefer to ride in an adamantium Rhino, not a wood one, thanks!

N0-1_H3r3 said:

My understanding was that the plans themselves show how to make stuff out of unusual resources. It's just that GW refers to STCs inconsistently: sometimes meaning the plans, sometimes the systems or the machines produced using the plans.

Still, IA vol1. mentions that regular Leman Russes can run on unorthodox fuels. Or the lasguns that can be recharged with campfires. Imperial technology was actually built with efficiency in mind more than technological sophictication.