Things I'd love (and expect) to see:

1. Commissar Career
2. Ogryn
3. Ratlings

Things that I'd love (but not expect) to see:

1. Other Abhumans
2. Large-Scale Vehicles

Time will tell - it's not even on their "Coming Soon" listing at this point, so I figure that we've got a little while to wait.

I used to think that Ogryns wouldn't fit into a DH campaign because of their woeful intelligence and charisma but really their superhuman strength more than makes up for those short comings. I'm sure a player will have plenty of opportunities to employ that strength to carry away wounded comrades, bend open iron bars in prisons and intimidate the **** out of people. Plus let's not forget they'd be absolutely perfect heavy weapons specialists (as long as they can remember which way to point the gun).

I would love to see horde or mass combat rules (in addition to almost everything listed already... Especially Commissars and Ogryns). Personally, I think you can't have a War book without being able to run a war with it. Am I right?

Doesn't Rogue Trader's Battlefleet Koronus come with mass-battle rules, though?

Oftentimes when it comes to games/story-telling, bigger is worse, not better.

Alex

Void Born said:

I think they're too stupid to be playable. For the same reason people can't really play someone much smarter than them, they can't play someone much stupider. And ogryns seem to be basically a bit above the gorilla level of intelligence. It would be like playing a dog. I'm sure they'll be in Only War though.

In my DH games we were fighting csm, riding titans, meeting emperor so not every DH game is about "boring" infiltration and rooting heresy

95% of them are. DnD sourcebooks aren't made for the people who want to play insurance salesmen.

coolzyg said:

But for a sourcebook to be worthwhile, it needs to appeal to the majority- or at least to a substantial percentage- of players. Taking up space on stuff that will only be used by 1% of players- like pages of Baneblade stats- is a waste of page count that could be dedicated to stuff that more than 1% of players can use. And if someone is just too darn creative to follow the general premise of the game, then surely they are creative enough to make up their own mega-tank stats...?

I happen to like the idea of Baneblade stats...

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

Baneblade stats are the kind of minimally useful novelty item that should be presented in the form of a free PDF, not taking up space in a key supplement.

I would actually think Banebalde stats would be appropriate- just because the base game is about Inquisitors and such, doesn't mean everyone plays it that way. There's more than enough material to run an IG-themed campaign, and in such cases a Baneblade would be a great addition, especially at the climax of a game, or if the players are the Baneblade's crew. It wouldn't be all blasting things with 11 barrels of hell, of course- maybe players have to investigate the barracks for potential saboteurs, hold off foes while the techpriest tries to repair an engine, that sort of thing. A Baneblade isn't just a big tank- get the players invested in it, and you've got an entire campaign!

Baneblade Super Heavy Tank and its variants
The Baneblade chassis one of the oldest in circulation and its production limited to only a handful of the forge worlds still in possession of the STC data to manufacture them and their histories rigorously maintained by the forge world that made it. They are a truly massive structure in of themselves that requires a formidable amount of support and logistics to deploy. Variants of the standard Baneblade are usually as a result of irreparable battle damage to the turret, they can still mount the same options and have all the same traits as the original.

Weight 319T
Length 13.5m
Width 8.4m
Height 6.3m
Ground Clearance 1.2m
Type: Ground Vehicle
Size: Monumental
Armour: Front: 55 Side: 45 Rear: 40
Structural Integrity: 60 Structure Points: 5
Tactical Speed: 7m Combat Speed: 30km/h Handling Modifier -15
Crew: (13) Commander, Driver, 7 x Gunners, 2 x Loaders, Comms Op, Engineseer
Access Points: Sides, Turret, Front
Availability: Extremely Rare

Traits
Very Expensive
Due to the logistics of fielding one of these monsters, all acquisition checks are at -30 in addition to any other penalties

Fire on the Move:
Advanced sensors and targeting in the vehicle incur no penalties To-Hit for either it/or the enemy moving

All Terrain:
No handling penalty for difficult terrain

Lumbering
The vehicle may not turn more than 90deg in a single turn

Advanced Construction
Complicated vehicle which incurs a -10 to Tech Use rolls to repair

Super-Heavy:
Cause Fear (1) in enemy infantry and vehicles smaller than themselves.
They cannot be stopped by difficult terrain but will instead be slowed by one half
When it receives a critical hit, the result is Halved down to a minimum of Jarring Blow

Structure Points
On a 8-11+ Critical Hit, the vehicle loses 1 Structure point, once it looses all its Structure Points it is either destroyed or explodes
Whenever the vehicle takes 1 or more Structure points of damage the crew takes a Jarring Blow

Armaments:
360deg Turret:
Super Battle Cannon Range: 4500m ROF S/-/- DAM 9D10+10 PEN: 25 BLAST 5m Magazine: 22
Co-Ax AutoCannon Range: 300m ROF S/2/5 DAM 4D10+5 PEN: 4 Magazine: 200 (Can only fire at same target as battle cannon)
Front:
Demolisher Cannon Range: 500m ROF S/-/- DAM 7D10 PEN: 10 BLAST 15m Magazine: 18
Twin Link H-Bolter Range 120m ROF -/-/20 DAM 2D10+2X PEN 5 Magazine 1000
Front-Left Sponsons
Twin Link L-Cannons Range 300m ROF -/2/- DAM 5D10+10E PEN 10
Front-Right Sponsons
Twin Link L-Cannons Range 300m ROF -/2/- DAM 5D10+10E PEN 10
Left Sponson
Twin Link H-Bolters Range 120m ROF -/-/20 DAM 2D10+2X PEN 5 Magazine 1000
Right Sponson
Twin Link H-Bolters Range 120m ROF -/-/20 DAM 2D10+2X PEN 5 Magazine 1000

I did up the other flavours of super-heavy as well as about 80-90% of the other IG vehicle types, mostly because I got sick of waiting and needed them for a long running game of planetary annexation. Threw in availability for RT games as they're really the only ones with the hard $$$ to get them and used the RT-ITS ruleset as the basis... acolytes would probably just steal them and look at their monthly income combined go up in burnt promethium every time they turn the key

bogi_khaosa said:

I must respectfully disagree with this Bogi. If you can role-play a ten year old you can role play an Ogryn. I also think you can role play someone who is much smarter than you; that's what the system and all it's attribute tests, skill rolls and talents are for.

Honestly, if you take this relativist approach (that seems to state that you cannot role play what you do not know) to it's logical conclusion, you are left in a situation where you can only role play yourself, which kind of defeats the purpose somewhat.

Zakalwe said:

I must respectfully disagree with the disagreement. Ogryns, except maybe Bone 'Eads, are depicted as considerably stupider than 10 year olds, who aren't really stupid so much as they are completely inexperienced. Ogryns are depicted as being at the level of heavy mental retardation. I can role-play someone other than myself, but I can't role-play somebody whose view of the world is totally alien to me because I have no idea what they would think, I can't put myself in their head. It's the same reason why stories told from the point of view of an animal (or an alien) are always heavily anthropomorphized. Come to think of it, Eldar are depicted as more human than Ogryns are...

Moreover, it would be very boring, because my personality is more complicated than "I avoid loud scary noises."

I can't role-play somebody much smarter than you because I have no idea what that person would think and am in principle incapable of doing so. Being smart isn't just a game-mechanical function of skill level, it's knowing what to do in a certain situation, when to apply the skills.

Okay, let's take a step back in to the sensible world and stop talking about comparing Ogryns to the mentally disabled, or 10 year olds.

Cavemen. They're about as smart as stoneage humans, and stoneage humans were still pretty smart, otherwise they never would have evolved in to us.

Blood Pact said:

A much better analogy than mine Blood Pact, which fully supports role playing an Ogryn.

What about role playing a different species or someone very different altogether? An Elf?, A Kroot? A Sister of Battle? It doesn't matter that you don't actually know what they would think, because this is make believe. It doesn't matter that I don't have an IQ of 200, I can still pretend. How would an actor in a movie portray a super genius? I've never been anything like a feral world assassin, but I pretend to be one every second sunday afternoon, and that's good enough for me.

Personally, I don't see too much of a problem with letting a player play an Ogryn. I figure if Rogue Trader can occasionally let one play a Freeboota Ork, an ORK!!, who, at least from my perspectives are known to have less brainpower than an average potato (most of them), AND are heretic xenos scum, than one could play an Ogryn, an accepted abhuman form in the Guard. Personally, I'd rather have just stats for them, and maybe use them as NPCs, but it could work. If nothing else, every character in the DH group was chosen because an Inquisitor saw something special in them, among the mutitudes of sheeple in the Imperium. Maybe the ogryn does demonstrate slightly more intellect than your average one, and that, in addition to his other advantages, persuaded said Inquisitor to give him a chance, say as his bodyguard. On the same level, I also want Commissar stuff, but I don't expect to see one of them in a DH team, threatening to blow away other players if they buckle. Someone that hard could be fun, and I expect Arbites and Sororitas could also add such flavor, and trouble, perhaps, to a group, but Commissars are known to cap people, and that could be troublesome, especially if my Psyker has to be "put down for his own good" just because he had to make a Perils check.

I've often looked at Dark Heresy, and to a lesser extent Rogue Trader, as a nice option to play War Games 40K, especially with some of the rules for Deathwatch, using Horde stuff, and Squad stuff, too, and for those, having Ogryns, Ratlings, and Commissars could be very nice, as well as the vehicles (though I do like the Apocrypha).

I also feel for the Guardsman Officer plight. Officers seem like they would be more mind-oriented soldiers, but ALL of the Guardsman's mental chars, except for Perception, I suppose, cost a ton, which could make the Officer choice seem very unappealing. Sometimes, I question how useful Command really is, since it doesn't give benefits for success (I suppose that's what the Talents are for), and players don't like having to do something, just because another player made a skill test, but a simple background package could fix it. Regardless of what else it does, having it switch the XP costs between, say, Fellowship and Agility could do well. Granted, it's still not super-cheap Fellowship, but it is better, and there is a balancing cost, now that Agility costs much more. It seems to work for the Arbitrator, who possesses many of the traits I would see an Officer have.

Background Package
Guardsman: Leader of Men
Cost: 300 xp
The soldiers of the Imperial Guard are not known for their independent thinking; they are drilled and trained to NOT think. They are given orders, which move down a strict chain of command, often involving a high likelyhood of death, and expected to follow those orders, without hesitation. Leading these warriors of the Imperium into the thick of the battle are its officers, men and women hardened by battle, like the rest of the soldiers, but trained by the Officer Corps, and tasked with making the tough orders, even in regards to their own safety, to see that the Imperium still stands tomorrow.

Such training certainly involves combat doctrines, but Officers, as their men will often heckle, when they feel they are not being heard, are better known to stand behind tables, pouring over maps and reports, sending the grunts off to die. While this is not completely true, their position as ralliers and thinkers does seem to make them stiffer, and less quick to respond physically. Maybe they do stand around those tables too much.

Effects
Apply all the following changes to your character.
Characteristics: You must switch the XP costs to increase Fellowship and Agility listed for Guardsman.
Skills: You gain Command (Fel) (+100) and Intimidate (+100)
Talents: You start the game with the Air of Authority talent.

--OR--

You could fabricate a talent or modified career that did the same thing, letting them switch costs for Ag and Fel. it seems a slightly more appealing option than digging up both Command boosts, and Talented (Command), and other Talented selections, because his Fellowship is crap, and they all together cost the same as the first boost to Fellowship.

Blood Pact said:

Stone-age humans were exactly as smart as us and didn't evolve into us, they were identical to us. Stone-age humans still exist, in fact, in places in Africa, South America, and other places. Ogryns are not stone-age humans who lack knowledge, they are stupid.

EDIT: Orks aren't depicted as stupid (in fact in the game they have the same Int range as a human PC and spend 250 XP for a Simple Int increase; I think Kroot have a lower score without looking at the book). They are depicted as crude and unsubtle, not stupid.

bogi_khaosa said:

Well I find myself agreeing with this too. Agreed that those cavemen were pretty much exactly the same as us (save for enviromental factors), but perhaps we could agree that Ogryn evolution involved a regression to a similar level of CULTURAL development. Definitely stupid by our standards, but still able to form tribal groups, cooperate, and communicate with each other.

I've often seen Ogryns depicted as possessing a cunning associated with their survival skills, and we shouldn't forget that they did evolve from 'ummies.

Anyway, I've said it before and probably will again, I won't tell anyone how they should play their game. For all the reasons given I think Ogryn PCs would be fine in the right campaign* (a bone'ead bodyguard for a Rogue Trader would be cool) but if you don't think so that's no skin off my nose.

*My example gives away that I personally think they would be better suited to the 'higer fantasy level' of Rogue Trader than Dark Heresy, but again, it depends on the campaign.

Finally, if someone just can't wait, check out any of No1h3r3's posts. There is a link at the bottom to a great PDF that has very good stats for Ogryns, Ratlings and Squats called 'Something Other Than Human'. Definitely worth the download.

bogi_khaosa said:

Ogryns are less intelligent than an average human, but they communicate via language , which tends to be the qualifying trait to be "smart enough to be a character" in most rpg systems.

Adeptus-B said:

Agreed, if it can talk, I can mimic it.

"Eerrrrr, when da commisar says, we charges da orks ova dere!"

I'm hoping for descriptions of some distinctice Calixian Guard regiments, like the Scintillian 84th, the Gunmetallicus and such. I love the idea that all regiments are different in armour, weaponry, rituals and tactics. So this would come in handy.

According to the IG codex, to be able to understand tactics, Ogryns need a bone'ead, so your character isn't going to be charging anybody on any commissar's orders because he won't understand what that means. (Leaving to one side whether or not the description in the codex makes any sense, since I think we can agree that Ogryns are smarter than dogs, who can handle tactics.)

OK, there are two issues here.

1. Is it possible to role-play something with an IQ of 50. In a sense, yes, in the sense in which you can say "I do such and such," just as how a scriptwriter can incoporate a dog into a script. However, you will not be able to do it accurately, since it is impossible to put yourself into the mental space of something that intellectually or psychologically very different from you, for the same reason it is impossible to imagine what it is like to be a cat. The most I can do is to imagine myself smaller, with four legs and the ability to see in the dark, and I can't talk. Which isn't what a cat is.

2. Why would you want to? Something with that level of intelligence has no depth of personality. There is no role to play other than "I hit it with my stick/I eat the pretty food/I run form the loud scary noise." Look at five-year-olds you know and ask yourself if you really want to play one.

In practice, I suspect that Ogryn PCs (or five-year-old PCs) would in fact inevitably be role-played as really strong adult humans who speak funny and are "stupid" when it doesn't matter to the plot -- they won't be able to add, but when the player realizes that the engine is going to go critical, the Ogryn is going to somehow find a way to get into the escape boats, despite not knowing what an engine is or going critical is.