Self explanatory, but the other discussions made me ponder this. I would never expect errata in this regard, but Plots, more so then costing on other cards seems like something easy to balance. You've got 3 variables on top of the plots ability (and that concept is too multifarious for me to try to calculate).

I'm curious what plots do people never see get played, and what alternative stats it might take to make their text playable. As I asked in another thread, Valar is "the bomb," and it would still be playable at 0/0/0... And then I considered the notion of a Negative Gold plot... where you're starting in the hole when counting, but you could build around it by using only reducers.

I don't think I've seen Snowed Under, The Raven's Song (I've never wanted this ability bad enough... what's the graph of the three values that you'd play if the plot had no text), Unconventional Warfare, and At the Wall. It's interesting that the last 3 are all trait-based (and I'm sure UW would be playable in a deck if we there were more effects like Dacey Mormont.

Frankly I think Snowed Under is playable, though perhaps 4/1/1 it might be seen more frequently. It's great to deal with an Out-of-House Seastone Chair in Bara, or a Red Viper if you don't give him the opportunity to defend, or anyone with the Black Cells.

I've never seen Good for the Gander played, ever. Except when it just came out in the CCG.

I guess nobody plays it because it's not a sure shot.

I like the card though, since it has potential to evolve as the game does. There are pretty obvious trends in the game that you'd be able to pick up on quick, if you have any experience.

-Maester Agenda with no Maester in setup? Herp derp flip GFTG and get a free maester off of At the Gates.
-Pre-plot action? GFTG to make them pay for Rule by Decree. (And not potentially screw yourself, like you might if you played your own.)
-Double Valar on those decks that run a lot of dupes or saves.

I mean, the potential is there. At 4 gold, it's not the end of the world if you don't get anything off of the flip.
It seems a safe bet in multiplayer though. You'll get decent gold, and probably a bargaining chip of some kind.

I think it would see more play if it got a solid initiative score. Not even major, maybe something like 4? That way you can use their own Red Wedding against them, or something similar.

~~~~~~~

I agree that Snowed Under could get played with the 4 cost bracket also. Returning a card to the opponent's hand isn't the end of the world, especially when they have some sort of control over what gets returned. Search and Detain has a stronger ability, and good influence score. Even if it doesn't always work out your way.

Guess it's just a victim of power creep. We played with it a little when it came out.

You could play Good for the Gander with the rookeries for a "sure shot". But then again: They don't get played either.

I believe Good for the Gander sees a fair amount of play in melee, at least in Europe.

Plots that I have seen played none or once.

1)Noose and swordpoint. Don't know why, maybe it would be considered more if it had bigger initiative? for kneel decks the city plots are just more powerful and the relentless persecution...

2)Planning ahead. I haven't seen this played even once after the coreset... it should have higher gold for that kind of ability and even some initiative. Currently its weird to play it, no taxation but I'm counting 3 gold from this plot.. umm what.

3)Holding the trident. This again seems like an ok plot, but there are just better ones, if it had one more gold or gave one more str then it would see more play.

4)fury of the sun and lion for some strange reason

5)Unconventional warfare. if you want the trait there are just better plots that don't cost you a gold to get that trait and to be events want the plot to be in the used pile. Maybe if it didn't cost gold but had all traits?

6)Waste their time. Problem with this one is that you get huge target on your head if you play it in melee where its the most powerfullest. I don't know how this could see more play...

Other plots I have seen used at times and even the usually thought "sucky" plots have nice ways of surprise.

I'd say the plots that I see used the least are Drunken Allegations, Planning Ahead, Calm Over Westeros, and Power and Wealth.
I dont think I have ever seen Attack From the Sea, Raven's Song, or Promise of Victory used.
Its also been a long time since I've seen Prince That Was Promised or King's Law used, though they are not bad plots.

Maester_LUke said:

I actually played this at Gen Con in melee. I was using a Martell deck and it was usually my 2nd or 3rd Round plot; it worked well about half the time, and if nobody knelt out their guys then at least it stalled for a Round, which was important for the deck I was running.

Skowza said:

Funny. It's gotta be a meta thing. I see King's Law all the time over here. But yeah, I've never seen Attack from the Sea used either. Even since Westeros Edition, or whenever it was introduced, I guess you could make a case for it though. Raven's Song just seems like a bad plot to me.

Rave said:

Do people in your meta play KL for the effect or for the really high Initiative?
Raven's song seems like it would be useful if it allowed you to make it a Season of your choice, but I don't see how it could be useful for the most part. Yea, it'd be great to play it when your opponent has like two Wintertime Marauders or something on the board, but I don't think anyone chooses their plots based on the possibility of an opponent running a Season.
I didnt get into the game until the end of KL cycle; was anyone running RS back when Time of Ravens was the active cycle?

Rave said:

Attack from the Sea was a great plot back during the Westeros/I&F CCG cycles - at that time 90% of locations had to kneel to trigger their abilities, and 4/5 gold/initiative were both pretty good. Now, the initiative would really have to be cranked way up, and maybe the gold - just too few locations that require kneeling to be effective these days (subtle kind of power creep, but striking if you compare LCG locations to the first couple of blocks from the CCG).

There are a number of Plots that seem like they could be good, but that I've never seen played:

Herding the Masses (more gold or initiative could definitely make this more attractive)

Calm over Westeros (seems like a decent opener for a slower deck)

Stay of Execution

Holding the Trident (agree that raising gold, initiative, or the strength boost could make this tempting - always nice with the Red Viper)

Personal List (i dont get out much)

Feast or Famine

Planning Ahead

Power and Wealth

Raven's Song

Stay of Execution

Stoic Resolve

Threat from the East

Here's a couple that *I* use that I've never seen anyone else play ever:

Burning Bridges - Potentially the strongest plot in the game right now

Assault on King's Landing - Could have been the bane of uber-character decks, with just a little targeted kill

Forgotten Plans - I still love this card; only thing that largely sucks about it is that you have to predict when they're going to use X-plot, where X is worth blanking. Fear of Winter was the most obvious target, and hence this usually, if I'm playing it, would be my first plot against most Stark decks.

Stoic Resolve - Go first and kneel all your characters to ensure you don't lose anything to military. Of limited use, but still fun to pull off sometimes. Especially useful is Archmaester Marwyn is your only standing character, so you can let him die and do Valar a second time, with none of your characters dying.

Valar Dohaeris - I love this card. You can stand your opponent's key characters during dominance with things like Distinct Mastery and wipe them from the table. There are also some clever cards that allow you to remove your opponent's characters during challenges, stand them, and make it so that they can't participate in any other challenges. This can get ugly real fast.

Desolate Passage - If you can stand Orell the Eagle twice and give him an intrigue icon, you get three unopposed challenges. In a Greyjoy deck, this can be truly devastating, since they have a lot that triggers off of unopposed. Assault of the Kraken and Assertion of Might are the simplest that come to mind. With RotO Melisandre, you could really be getting power quickly.

Okay, that's all for now.

Reast or Famine - the 0-6-2 one. Given how popular an opening Blockade is here in teh Eats, I am surpised I don't see it more. At teh Gates has pretty much been teh de facto open since the summer though and that nets you a character and you only lsoe three gold to teh blockade - so ti is probably a better play. But that one used to eb pretty popular.

I am also suprised fFortified Position doesn't see more play. Its got four gold and its ability id efitneiyl top tier - lots of decks revolve around key characters these days.

Funny, since I have played a lot of those plots!

Snowed Under will get my vote, and it has always been a favorite, especially if you also play some good 'coming into play' characters. It was in my GenCon deck I THINK, so I could hit one of their largest cards (many times, it is very hard not to kneel for a full turn), plus hit a Scavenger so I can draw three next turn as well (or Messenger, or etc.).

I played Attack from the Sea for quite awhile, and have played Valar D in certain decks (Martell, duh). Attack isn't that good anymore, but for awhile the 4/5/1 stats were nice. Now we have 4 gold plots falling out of our ears

Right now I would stay the trait manipulation one (sorry, I am horrible with names). Dissension is already a good card, and can be combo'd here (especially w/ Refugees giving a 2-for-1 effect). It can give other traits that might matter as well if you don't have one in hand (Wildling, Lord, Knight, etc.).

@rings: Yeah, Songs of Bael the Bard. The issue with it is that it can't hit noble characters, the ones who hurt the most. That said, it can still take out a Viper's Bannermen or whatever is ailing you that is not noble.

Rubinon said:

actually i play both in my lanni kingsguard deck (its a melee deck though so maybe i'm just assuming something will get played that i will want to copy).

I agree. Good for the Gander is pretty decent in Melee.

I've used it sometimes when I don't know what to stick in a melee deck as my 7th plot. It usually works out pretty well as long as its played in the first or second Round. Could also be situationally useful with Marwyn - trigger GftG from your used pile to trigger something that is currently revealed.

Skowza said:

So you GFTG first or 2nd turn, then play marwyn, then you when someone valars, you can double valar if you want.

Hmm. Good against GJ for sure.

Fieras said:

Yea, that's pretty much exactly what I had in mind.