Vamosamorir said:

Ok, but this is not considered a real playtesting... this is something similar to a "feeling".

If a player uses that chaos deck (with the new quest) against best decks available made by every race (especially Empire) and he wins more than the half of the games (but every deck has to play at least 10 matches against it), then maybe we can start thinking about ovepowering or something like that... now it's really too soon to say that!

And, by the way, the strength of the empire is not provided by a single card (like VTHC), there are so many good cards and combos:
- it's quick (thanks mainly to Derricksburg Forge but not only it),
- it's efficient (thanks to smart use of resources)
- it's smart (thanks to combos, movements of units, recalls, etc)
- it's lethal (thanks to Friederick, Karl Franz, etc)
- it's well protected (thanks to cards like Church of Sigmar or Iron Discipline)

...Chaos is still very very far from all theese issues!

i say that this game always had a dominant deck, this time is empire decks... the solution is not ban/restrict new cards. Perhaps in six months will have 20 restricted cards by this way. Wait this new cycle and see what happens,

Yes, empire is a great deck but you still can win with orck, dwarves and chaos decks. Example (there are much more)

CHAOS Turn 1: Sorcerer of tzeench in KZ. Put a develop on BZ and takes a selfdamage

EMPIRE TURN1:D forge + church of sigmar: First you choose to put support in play to protect your units, and your oponent havent any support for your RR

CHAOS Turn 2: fledlingn chaos spawn in BZ, the new quest in QZ and Nurglins on the quest (corrupted). Contested village in KZ and destroy the churh. Put a develop on BZ and a resource token on sorcerer, that destroys the spawn. Next turn will be able to destroy units with 3 HP like roddik raider.

Is only one option, its no so difficult to see plays like this against chaos. And i dont think that this quest should be restricted... by the same way i dont think that RR or D forge should not be restricted.

Vamosamorir said:

Contested village is not a Chaos support so it won't do, but you are right - empire have veeeeeery hard time with new Chaos.

Jaszczur

Just as Jaszczur said, Contested Village doesn't work with the new quest. It needs to be a Chaos non-attachment support put into play for the quest to trigger. But, Wall of Maggots is a nice 1 cost chaos support. If Schemeing Cultist is out, Wall of Maggots can really cause oppo to think twice about attacking it's zone.

stormer said:

accurate, is a feeling. Because as you say is too early to know if it's overpowered or not. So it is too early to know if it is necessary to restrict RR and D forge. As I said, there was always a dominant deck; but I only see request for restriction uin order cards. I've never been request for a destruction card when they were dominant decks. I only say that perphaps in two months empire are not dominant. Then I want see RR and D forge in resticted list if is not necessary.

Sorry, effectively contested village dont do... but you know that i want to say. Chaos (and orcs, and DE. and Dwarves...) still can win a game against empire, its hard yes, but possible. Wait before taking such drastic measures such as restricting a card.

Remember that is only one opinion (mine).

My wish-restricted-list :
Sorcerer of Tzeentch

too good ability to its cost with loyalty. you can see it appear most of deck. If rule allow to put it on Order deck, i'll do it.

If we are musing on our dream restricted/ban lists this would be mine:

Ban -

Rodrick's Raiders

Visit the Haunted City

Restricted -

Mining Tunnels

Reclaim the Fallen

Warpstone Excavation

Derricksburg Forge

Sorcerer of Tzneetch

Offering to Hekarti

I dont think Rodricks is inherently overpowered the way that Visit is. However, I feel like such strong targeted support removal is just not in theme with what empire is supposed to do. I find it similar to the banning of Compelled by the Rock in agot. The card itself is not really overpowered, but it gives a strong out of character ability to a particular faction.

While empire might be the best faction right now by a little bit, I havent found them to totally outpace a well built and well played deck from every other faction.

TL

Sorcerer of Tzeentch doesn't aim supports and Rodrik doesn't aim units.

Verena destroy both so it is the real ennemy ^^

Jaszczur, Darker I accept your challange:P

The truth is that the Empire is the strongest fraction. the worst matchup for the empire is.... empire. i know also that EVERY other fraction can win with empire (even HE!!!), I've done it many, many times. there is very thin line which makes empire stronger, its name is derriksburg forge. without such a good economy the empire will be eaten for a breakfast:P

@Fortep, I wouldn't mind if empire led by you won the main tournament

Many people might not understand that empire, more than other fractions, rely on its high economy. I am strongly in favour of restricting Derrickburg Forge, but it would put order decks (both dwarfs and HE uses it) far behind destruction. Maybe we need this metagame change.

Jaszczur

Vitamin T said:

and what do you suppose empire must do?

and waag (10 damage at turn 2????) and troll vomit (my units have cost 1 and 2 and can play with only 3 resorces/turn easily and you not). not a problem?

Why cant wait? If chaos or orcks have a dominant deck ... i think i dont see a post about restirct destruction cards?

its only my feeling, but feel anger with this possibity: restrict/ban is too seriusly.

)

I agree about Rodrik's Raiders in the restricted list while I don't think Derriksburg should be consider that much important (still a good accelerator for the Empire deck but not that bad for the opponent strategy).

I also agree to bring back the mining tunnels for dwarf deck.

At the moment I think that Dwarf vs. Empire is a playable match and maybe we will have some big surprise at the european tournament of next week!

Orc Rush got some new interesting card and can be considered as a tier1 even if it has very bad muchup against Dwarf deck and some Empire buildings. Chaos, Orc control, Dark Elf and High Elf still are tier 2 in this game (I think that Rodrick in restricted could partially solve the problem).

I hope that FFG will do the right step to make this game a little bit more wide-ranging

I hope FFG does something as soon as possible...Time is running and nothing's on the horizon yet...Usually, we get a bit of insight on the future by some previews...

I think FFG's listening to us, I'm sure about it...I just hope this won't bring too much trouble...Just the trouble they need to improve the design and playtesting.

In spanish championship, 2 chaos and 2 Dark elves in TOP 4. They have no problem with Rodrik raiders and Derricksburg forge. In fact, no order decks in semifinals

I wonder why Rodrik's Riders and Osterknacht Elite don't have "in coresponding zone" entry on them? Isn't this too powerfull?

Vamosamorir : Do you have any more news about the spanish championship ? Thanks.

Vamosamorir said:

Let's wait for Stahleck, that's the final verdict...

There will be a lot of fun at Stahleck ;-) Location is awsome I hope ppl will be kind aswell. From Poland you can expect some top skilled players. I myslef have no expectation about this tournament I just wanted to see this castle! ;-)

I expect to see a lof of "verena" decks and I wonder if anyone dare to come with High Elves :-)

Vamosamorir said:

Hard to get usefull informations upon this sentence, as long as we don't know how many peoples were at the event and at least the main faction of each deck

We were 8 and all playing chaos / DE deck. (a very good reason for having no problem with forge and raiders )

We were 90 and all playing order except the 4 finalist.

but if the 4 finalist beat 86 order doesnt that show that chaos/de is better than order

Mamut said:

I expect to see a lof of "verena" decks and I wonder if anyone dare to come with High Elves :-)

loken14 said:

Absolutely no... you have to count how many casual players are there, how many hours of playtesting everyone has played, and so on... in simple words, it depends to the level of the tournament.

I repeat: let's wait for stahleck, just 2 days to the final verdict.

Le'ts see what happens

I hope that new maps will be added to the restricted list to restart the game Or that designers find a way to prevent the Empire games are too dominant.

Lilian said:

Can you tell me what important tournaments has dominated empire decks??

gen con?, perhaps.

European championship?

some greeat regional in USA

its no difficult beat more than a 50% of the games with a chaos deck vds empire

Ok, so we already know that empire is one of the weaker factions. Stronger than Bretonnians, but still probably somewhere between High Elves and Lizardmen. Poor fellows can't even won tournaments, because everybody is playing anti-them decks. So here's a little suggestion: swap their Derricksburg Forge with Soul Stealer on restricted list. Purely out of spite. Just saying...