zeb said:

I could say the same thing to you

zeb said:

There is nothing in the rules that says they are coupled either and that is the problem my friend. I am acutely aware that this is a circular argument that can only be resolved if and when an official FAQ entry regarding it

@GhostWolf69 There is no loop if and only if you don't resolve the surge effect of the crows. The faq says that Thalin kills the crows before the surge effect occurs preventing this issue.

Actually I disagree with silverhand77 because his point of view involves the loop in the case of Thalin is questing and only Crows are in the encounter deck.

silverhand77 said:

Indeed, but I would have tendency to apply the Occam's razor principle there. No need to overcomplicate things.

Xylan said:

Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

1. Crows are always shuffled back in teh Encounter Deck when killed.
2. Thalin Questing ensures they are immediately Killed and shuffled back
3. So chances are that you will end up with a bunch of Corws left in the Deck and nothing else
4. When this happens all you have to do is keep Questing with Thalin to ensure NOTHING is ever added to the Staging area.
5. This can happen even with one Single Crow as well, since you kill it and "shuffle" it back and then reveal it again. If you are to reveal two or more Encounter cards during Staging... so you just Reveal and kill the same card a couple of times... then Resolve the Questing.

Above has happened during our games.... twice... You might call it something else, but I call it a sort of Loop.

(I did not mention Surge once, I agree with you that it should not resolve, but Shuffling back into the Deck and killed when Revealed is a bad combo either way.)

/wolf

The whole problem is the Eastern Crow/Thalin ruling (they get shuffled back but surge doesnt trigger) contradicts one or other rule of the game and throws us into this rule limbo:

Either enemies killed by Thalin as they are revelead should be considered "as countered" = no text on the enemy card takes place and enemy goes into discard pile (=no surge but why yes to reshuffling?), or

considered as being killed instantly after they are placed in the staging area = all of the enemy card text takes effect, including the crows being reshuffled and surge card drawn (=yes to reshuffle, but why no surge?).

Shelfwear said:

I understand where you are comming from and I agree that it is a little messy.

My Houseruling makes this perfectly simple though.

Resolution = What happens

Trigger = When it happens

Same Trigger? First player decides.

Surge - triggers "when revealed", even though some stupid FAQ mentions that it also always triggers when it enters Staging Area from the Encounter deck.

Thalin - triggers when an Enemy is revealed. (I understand that some silly rule say it doesn't HAVE a trigger but is always in effect.... personally, I don't agree. There is something telling you when this effect happens, and in my book, this IS the trigger.

Shuffle - triggers when it is killed. If this condition was interpreted so that it shouldn't happen when it is killed.... then it could never trigger at all. So I will trigger it any time it is killed regardless. I mean saying that it will not Trigger when Thalin kills it, would be similar to saying that it would not trigger, when ANYONE kills it... and that is just silly.

So they trigger at the same instacne... now what?

At my Table, First Player Decides. It is killed and triggers the Shuffle effect. Surge doesn't get the chance to trigger because it got killed (and triggered another effect) BEFORE trying to trigger Surge.

Again, just to make it crystal, these are my houserules. I like them.

/wolf

Shelfwear said:

Well, the FAQ does not deal with the Eastern Crow/Thalin case in particular, so we do not know exactly how to deal with this. It only clarifies when Thalin's ability applies. However you have a good point. If we consider Thalin's ability (a constant effect) occurs first, then yes, the card should be discarded and not reshuffled, as it is defeated before any keyword is applied.

Thalin kills crows before any keyword or when revealed effect.

Thalin CORE 6
When an enemy card is revealed from the encounter
deck, Thalin’s ability resolves before any keyword or
“When Revealed” card effects on the encounter card.

But the crows are reshuffled by a Forced effect which still occurs. The card is not "countered" only its keyword and when revealed effect could be considered as "countered" even if in this case I dislike the word.

Xylan said:

(emphasis is mine) Surge is not a When revealed effect/keyword, it is a keyword on its own on the Easter Crow card. So if Thalin's destroys the card before Surge is applied, and as written in the FAQ "before any keyword", why should Forced be applied and not Surge in that case?

EDIT: You are right. Sorry, indeed Forced is not a keyword, it is an effect. Wow this is subtle!

Xylan said:

ok, that makes sense. Though it will be difficult to explain this to casual gamers and non-rule-aficionados. They should have added to the Thalin card that keywords are not triggered from killed enemies but forced effects still apply to make everything easier. For now its only the Eastern Crows but its a matter of time till some more 1hp-enemies with odd effects will appear in the future APs...

zeb said:

zeb said:

surge is a keyword but it does resolve when the card bearing it (in this case crows) is revealed from the encounter deck. And I think the reason that the forced effect occurs is because Thalin killing the crows would have to be considered as defeating them which would therefore trigger the effect.

silverhand77 said:

Yes, I just realised it (and edited my post). Actually Forced is an effect, not a keyword, and Thalin's ability occurs before "When revealed" effect and any keyword. So effects other than "When revealed" therefore may apply. I do not know if Nate is lucky there or if it was made on purpose, but this is very subtle!

zeb said:

I'd still like a full clarification around Thalin's ability. I don't think his FAQ was written in a very clear way and I'm a bit disappointed that they didn't amend it.

silverhand77 said:

That's fair enough, can't do harm. The ideal would be to give a detailed sequence system like with CoC LCG.