It's at the very very bottom of the page, in light grey text - click "Rules Questions".

GhostWolf69 said:

Rulebook pg. 24 under "Surge"

"Resolve the Surge keyword immediately after resolving any when revealed effects on the card."

Eleanor cancels the when revealed effect. Canceled effects don't resolve, so Surge never happens. It seems pretty clear to me.

Is the confusion resulting from section 1.02 of the FAQ? The way I read that was as a clarification to explain that these effects can happen during setup, and not a change to the sequence in which they resolve.

But that's just me.

And if I may double-reply, it occurs to me that even if you decided all three effects (when revealed, surge and doomed) occurred simultaneously upon that card entering play, you could then invoke the simultaneous effect timing rule and let the first player choose the order. The first player could then choose to resolve the when revealed effect first, at which point Eleanor could respond to it with her response effect, forcing the card out of play before the other two effects could hit.

Venthrac said:

I've already responded to this statement earlier in the thread. The first player only gets to choose the order if the effects conflict as per the example provided on page 2 of the official FAQ. In that example the resulting situation is that you have sneak attack which would put Beorn into the players hand and also the effect actually on Beorn which says to shuffle it back into the deck. It is a clear conflict of effect because Beorn cant go to both places at the same time. When revealed, surge and doom don't conflict, you could actually resolve them. the disagreement is whether or not they actually resolve. Can you see what I mean?

Ah, right you are. My mistake then.

However, I would still point to the wording in the rulebook that states Surge does not resolve until after the 'when revealed' effect resolves. This puts the events into a clear sequence. I would assume Doomed acts the same way Surge does.

Venthrac said:

True, but the question is not when does it resolve, but when does it trigger? is it a separate effect from the when revealed effect or part and parcel of it? the rules just aren't clear enough around this.

silverhand77 said:

But is there the distinction in LotR between triggering and resolving? If not and the two are simultaneous/undistinguished, Nate's ruling regarding Eleanor's action therefore does not fit. The FAQ does not resolve the sequence/timing issue for Surge/Doomed and Guarded, even in entry 1.01, which only addresses the setup phase ; it does not (to my understanding) modify the rule that Surge occurs after "When revealed". As you pointed out, there is no timing conflict here under the current rules and FAQ, except if I missed something.

What would be great is that Nate rework the sequence of play once and for all in the future FAQ. He did it for Cthulhu LCG, so I am hoping he does the same for LotR.

zeb said:

I agree. The Rules & Official FAQ only imply (at least in my interpretation) that there is a sequence to the way events occur, it doesn't actually state so directly. There are instances where it refers to events triggering and also instances that refer to events resolving, but not that an effect triggers and then resolves. But how can you have an effect that resolves if it hasn't triggered first? The FAQ says that keywords resolve any time the card on which they occur enters play. and the Rules says that when revealed effects resolve when the card is revealed. To me this indicates that keywords and when revealed effects trigger simultaneously. So my question is why should cancelling the when revealed effect also cancel the keyword? The answer I've been given on this thread is because the card leaves play. However I haven't found an official ruling that says that an effect that has been triggered cancels because the card bearing it leaves play. So yes I agree a rework on the sequence of play and also an improved and updated FAQ is definitely in order.

There is a FAQ update: Surge and Doomed resolve on the original card. Eleanor cancels the original card's When Revealed text, then reveals a new card. Surge, Doomed, and When Revealed effects all resolve on the new card.

radiskull said:

Does that mean that as a general rule, Surge and Doomed (and Guarded?) are resolved first when a card enters play, in any case?

zeb said:

No, it means that Eleanor's effect only cancels the When Revealed effects.

Svenn said:

I see, so the timing of the card resolution is not ruled here. It means that with Eleanor action, we just ignore the When revealed part and replace the card. The card is not interrupted, destroyed or replaced just after When revealed. We have to see Eleanor action as a Golden Rule that says to resolve a card, but without the "When revealed" part.

However, when Eleanor is not involved, Surge is normally resolved after When revealed, as described in the book.

Am I correct? (sorry to be thick, English is not my first language, nor are LCG my first games )

zeb said:

"Q: If Eleanor (CORE 8) is used to cancel the "when
revealed" effects of a treachery card, are any surge or
doomed keywords on that card also canceled?

A: No. Eleanor only cancels the "when revealed"
effects of the treachery card. Any surge or doomed
keywords on the card resolve before the new
(replacement) card is revealed."

I don't specifically see the mention of surge resolving after the when revealed, but it does still seem to imply that the When Revealed is canceled, then Surge and Doomed trigger, then the card is discarded and replaced.

Are there any situations where the order actually matters?

Svenn said:

It does with Thalin's ability, so we were wondering the same for Eleanor's. But she does not interrupt a card resolution ; she just overrides "when revealed" and triggers the card replacement.

Svenn said:

So are you suggesting that Surge would not resolve if for example Thalin killed the Eastern Crows? because if you are that would seem a bit incongrous.

I'm happy with the new FAQ, but I do wish they had cleared up the definition around Thalin's ability and also included a comprehensive play sequence which illustrates when events trigger and resolve etc.

silverhand77 said:

It does not, since Thalin's ability is resolved before any keyword, as explicitely mentioned in the FAQ ; there is no ambiguity. On the other hand, Eleanor's ability only cancels the very specific "When revealed" effect of a card. You just ignore this part, skip it, but resolve the rest of the card effects, and replace the card with another one. Still, I guess surge occurs after When revealed as explained in the rules.

zeb said:

The FAQ says that Thalin's ability resolves before any keyword. It doesn't say that it triggers before them. My argument is that in the case of the crows, surge and Thalin's ability trigger simultaneously, immediately the card is revealed, then Thalin's ability resolves killing the crows and then surge resolves. There is no official ruling that I can find that says that a triggered ability cancels when the card bearing it leaves play, therefore I resolve surge. So you see, plenty ambiguity

In Magic, you get the trigger for an ability (which generally adds the effect to the stack), then some time later you resolve it.

In LOTR, you get the trigger for an ability and then immediately resolve it. There's no delay. Where it gets complicated is when RESPONSE abilities interrupt the resolution, especially when you have a multi-part resolution.

So, a Crebain is revealed from the top of the deck. Thalin states "as it is revealed by the encounter deck." What does that mean? Well, apparently it's before "when it is revealed", and keyword abilities.

There are really good reasons that Magic standardises its language on cards: it's so you know exactly how something works.

So, what is the difference between "when it is revealed" and "as it is revealed"?

MerricB said:

Can you show me where in the rules or official FAQ you found this?

MerricB said:

I think they are derivatives of each other and therefore mean the same thing.

silverhand77 said:

Well, you cannot invent and add rules just because they are not explicitely written . There is nothing in the rules that says triggering and resolving are decoupled ; I reckon that the vocabulary in the rules is sometimes inconsistent (trigger/resolve), but think that the latest FAQ has solved all ambiguities. Thalin and Eleanor have special abilities, the former having his ability applied before anything else, thus leading to eliminating a 1-HP enemy before applying its keywords, the latter only overriding "when revealed". In other words, the sequence of play as described in the rules is unchanged (there is no reason to think otherwise), these heroes on the other hand just have specific abilities applied at specific times, clarified by the FAQ. You may also consider that their abilities have to be applied per the Golden Rule.

I never played Magic, but I have the feeling that your interpretation of the rules is greatly influenced by your experience in this CCG. You just need to "unlearn" what you already know.

zeb said:

The trouble with the latest FAQ is that it manages to present two seemingly incompatible rulings. It doesn't help that Thalin has rather strange wording.

Thalin basically looks like he has a "when revealed" ability: when a monster is revealed, damage it. So, say Crebain get revealed. In the normal case of things, you'd go:

(1) Resolve "When Revealed" text. (first player chooses order in case of multiple abilities)
(2) Resolve Keyword (Doomed, Surge) text.

Now, by the ruling on Thalin, you resolve the "When Revealed" text first, and then, because it's destroyed the Crebain, part (2) never occurs.

Eleanor meanwhile has a Response ability that interrupts the middle of the action.

(1) Resolve "When Revealed" text - at this point Eleanor jumps in, cancels the text and discards the card.
(2) Resolve Keyword text

Now, Eleanor can't act after (2), because that way you've already resolved the When Revealed text. It must resolve instead of (1), which means the card will be discarded by the time (2) rolls around. By the Thalin ruling, that means it never resolves - but the Eleanor ruling says it does, so we have a contradiction.

We might get out of this due to the odd wording on Thalin. In this case, we move to the following sequence of effects:

(1) Resolve "As Revealed" text - so Thalin destroys the card before we even get to the next stage.
(2) Resolve "When Revealed" text
(3) Resolve Keyword text

However, if (2) starts, (3) goes as well...

It's terribly inconsistent. I'm not a fan of the LCG timing framework in the first place - especially where responses fit into everything.

MerricB said:

According to the rules p23, his ability is not a "when revealed", it is a constant effect, since it has no bold keyword:

Constant effects continually affect the game state as
long as the card is in play and any other specified
conditions are met. These effects have no bold trigger,
as they are always active.

The timing of a constant effect is here clarified: it occurs before anything else.

MerricB said:

No, Thalin effect acts as soon as a card is revealed, i.e. that this card is put in the staging area and resolved, including "when revealed" and keywords. Now Thalin effect is applied first, before anything else, as clarified in the FAQ. The card should have said that in the text, it says it in the FAQ.

MerricB said:

Again, it is not what the FAQ says. Eleanor does not "interrupt" a card. It says Eleanor only ignores the "When revealed" part, as if it were skipped, but the rest of the sequence outside of "When revealed" (Surge/Doom) is realised. Then the card is replaced with a new card, which is also resolved. Again, the wording on Eleanor's card could have been better, using "ignore" or "skip" instead of "cancel" the "when revealed" effect.

On the other hand, Thalin's ability may interrupt the Crows, but only because the Crows have only 1 HP and thus are destroyed because of the constant effect which is applied first. If the Crows had 2 HP, then the Crows would get 1 damage and their effects (When revealed, Surge) would be applied.

At least this i how I read it. What would be inconsistent is if one day we are told that another 1HP card has its "When revealed" effect resolved with Thalin.

I still stand by my House Rule.

Put all events to be executed from the same trigger (in this case a card is Revealed) in one pile and let the First player set the order of resolution.

So if he picks Thalin First... there is no Surge. etc.

/wolf

This entry of the faq has been written to avoid an infinite loop when Thalin is questing and the Crows are the latest card of the encounter deck. If surge would resolve, the Crows would be killed by Thalin and come back due to the keyword, killed again, come back again and so on for ever.

Xylan said:

Dude, this Loop is there no matter what.

If one or two corws are the only cards left, Thalin kills them, they are mixed back in the "pile" and Thalin kills them again next round.

Granted it's not a continous loop, but still a loop IMO.

/wolf