silverhand77 said:

Right there... that's it.

/wolf

silverhand77 said:

I'm loathe to say anything because for now there is Nate's ruling but no clear guidance from the rules as written, so I'm not sure why this thread is still seeing so much action but I believe that the whole point of Thalin's errata in the FAQ is to highlight that he prevents Surge from resolving on Eastern Crows.

That is why the FAQ was added, because people asked for clarity and FFG clarified that Surge does not resolve because Thalin kills them first.

In that instance your above interpretation is incorrect; why else do you think it is even in the FAQ if Surge still resolves anyway?

[i'm loathe to say anything because for now there is Nate's ruling but no clear guidance from the rules as written, so I'm not sure why this thread is still seeing so much action but I believe that the whole point of Thalin's errata in the FAQ is to highlight that he prevents Surge from resolving on Eastern Crows.

That is why the FAQ was added, because people asked for clarity and FFG clarified that Surge does not resolve because Thalin kills them first.

In that instance your above interpretation is incorrect; why else do you think it is even in the FAQ if Surge still resolves anyway?

I've already answered that, I belive that it is in the FAQ to clarify the sequence of events. Also as I've already pointed out on the other thread about Thalin, this FAQ could have been written more clearly from a grammatical point of view becuase as it is, it is too ambiguous.

silverhand77 said:

I've already answered that, I belive that it is in the FAQ to clarify the sequence of events. Also as I've already pointed out on the other thread about Thalin, this FAQ could have been written more clearly from a grammatical point of view becuase as it is, it is too ambiguous.

To clarify the sequence of events for what purpose? If the sequence of events don't matter, which I think is what you are saying in regard to Thalin and Crows, why does the sequence even need clarifying?

pumpkin said:

I would think you would clarify the sequence of events to alleviate confusion as to when events occur. If you read all of my posts on this thread it would indicate that I think the sequence of events matters greatly. which is why I'm not happy with how Thalin's erata was worded in the FAQ. The grammar is bad and the erata is therefore open to interpretation which defeats the purpose of erata I think.

We're reading the text rules too closely. Going to have to use some gaming instincts.

When faced with a decision where something could happen or something else could happen and the rules aren't helping, just go with whatever choice is in favor of the Encounter Deck/Game. Don't go with the choice that makes things any easier on the players.

The Encounter Deck is the favorite child, it is going to get all of the cool gifts. The Players are the siblings who always gets socks and coupons for Rite Aid.

Eleanor should be used for the nastiest Treachery Cards. And after using her you pray to the God of Cardboard that the other copy of that Treachery Card isn't the one coming to replace it.

silverhand77 said:

You still aren't answering my question though - the question is why clarify the sequence of events for Thalin and Eastern Crows if the order in which things happen had no effect? If surge still occurs, who cares if Thalin goes first or not?

Yes, you have been saying all along that the sequence of events matter greatly, but your whole stance is that the sequence of events matter greatly to prove that all events still resolve and therefore the order in reality actually isn't important.

That's what doesn't sit well with me - If Surge always occurred on Crows, the Thalin FAQ (on which t is based) would be irrelevant and pointless, IMO.

There's a few of things you might not know, that makes me believe in the case of Thalin and Crows you are not correct.

1. The Thalin/Crows timing discussion was one of the first things that were being discussed with this game (and I think it actually occurred on BBG boards initially). As they aren't controlled by FFG, one of the playtesters for the game answered the queries, explaining crows didn't surge and that it would be covered in the upcoming FAQ being worked on. Ok not Nate, but I'm pretty sure that guy was invovled in helping with the initial FAQ, so if he'd amswered it one way, do you not think he would have made sure the FAQ was 100% clear if actually the game was meant to be played another way?

2. The agreement that Thalin cancels Surge on Crows is pretty much universal (I think!?) among current players, because of that intial discussion, because of the subsequent FAQ entry and because when-ever it has been clarified on places such as BGG, no one, Nate etc, has ever posted to say the FAQ should actually be read the way you are reading it.

3. In the 2nd version of the FAQ, I know that one of the board members helped ensure the FAQ was clear and covered all of the still outstanding (at that point) questions on these and BGG boards. I'm pretty sure that person was fully aware of how Thalin and Crows was being read by the forumites and so if Nate had meant it to be read differently the FAQ would have been changed then.

At the end of the day it is all about opinion, and I think we do agree on one thing, that the FAQ needs some further wording to explicitly state how Thalin and Crows are intended to work together, and until that happens, I'm sure you'll continue to play one way and I'll play another.

If it gets clarified that Thalin doesn't stop surge on Crows, then I think they will be a degree of shock, but it's possible I suppose.

Happy gaming!

pumpkin said:

Thalin already sucks (1WP + ability that only works when questing, really???), taking out his one good quality kill makes him all but pointless.

Dam said:

Yep. And that is putting it mildly!

Shnik said:

This is how I see it as well.

booored said:

I dont think so. Eleanor is start to be to powerful in this case. We need to wait off FAQ but i personally think doomed and surge is always work.

booored said:

I usually have Doomed resolve before the When Revealed effect, so Eleanor doesn't cancel it. Since the rules on surge specify that you surge another card after the When Revealed effects, if any, I go with this theory that Surge doesn't resolve from the discard pile.

Kiwina said:

That is how i see surge as well, but.... .. .

• "Forced and When Revealed Effects

Forced effects are initiated by specific occurrences throughout a game, and they occur automatically, whether the card’s controller wants them to or not. They are denoted by a bold “Forced:” trigger on a card. These effects initiate and resolve immediately, whenever their specified prerequisite occurs. The enemy card Marsh Adder provides an example of a forced effect that must be triggered whenever its specified trigger (“each time Marsh Adder attacks”) is met.

When revealed effects are a special case of forced effects, that occur automatically as soon as the encounter card is revealed. They are denoted by a bold “When Revealed:” trigger on a card. When revealed effects do not resolve when the card is revealed as a shadow effect."

As "surge" and "when revealed" and "doom x" are all meant to occur "immediately" and are also ALL "when revealed effects" I see it as they all trigger at the exact same time, as the card is placed into the staging area... then Elenore triggers her cancel before they resolve, they are now triggered but waiting for Elenore's effect to complealt before they can resolve, her effect places the cards in the graveyard, so they nvr get the chance to resolve.

Once again I will say that to my knowledge, there is nothing in the rules or official FAQ that says that surge and doom don't resolve if the card bearing it ends up in the discard pile. This is an assumption albeit a possibly vaild one. The assumption that they resolve is equally valid. Like I've already said, we need clarification.

Well that is the entire point.. like many rules in this game there is no "correct" answer... just what ever you prefer to play with.

Not until the OFFICIAL, not the forum's FAQ has been updated to address these issues.

Still for me the logic here is pretty sound. I play a LOT of card games, including being pretty heavily into CoC with is a LCG and has a similar rule system to LoTR, and I can not think of a single game, including CoC, that has card affects still running after they are discarded from play. And no.. I am not ignoring the multitude of cards that trigger when they enter the yard, this is a completely different situation.

The logical progression of a stack is common is every card game I know of, and even if these events trigger instantly, the fact she can cancel the "when revealed" effect, witch according to the official rule book is "immediately", so even if we assume that they are all triggering at the exact same time and all appear on the same level of the stack with no word order from the card being taken into account, Elenors ability while coming after they trigger but before they resolve.. would imo... remove it from play BEFORE there is a chance of the keywords to resolve.

Still like i said, I think this logic is pretty sound and I'm satisfied with it until there is some kind of official word. Sure there are assumptions in this logic string, but there is just as many (if not more) in the other logic strings in this thread... so just pick what you like. It is a failing in this games design, this is not the only case of this in the game... I do hope this will be addressed in a official faq at some point, just as CoC gets very nicely done official faqs.

iGaveHimLife said:

Magic The Gathering has a stack mechanic that often has effects resolving after a card has left play. It is one of the most played card games out. But I agree with you in saying that I too hope this will be addressed in an official FAQ

I still side with the cancel

.... . . .well I used to be a big MTG player.. I have won 2 GPs even and then was a MTG Judge for a while. I do not want to derail this thread.. but PM me and I can explain to you how wrong your last statement is Lets not dig into MTG rules in this thread.

But aside form that I agree, the game rules do need to be refined at the official level.

iGaveHimLife said:

From the MTG Comprehensive rules:

112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won't affect the ability.

rofl... Exactly.... .. . this was my exact point. I guess you do not understand what this rule is talking about or how MTG game states, as well as the entrance and exits to them, are defined... that is cool.. many people do not.

Glaurung said:

As opposed to, Eleanor being really weak? Not only does she exhaust to use her power, but you ALSO replace the card you discarded with a new one. Combined with her poor stats, if Surge and Doomed weren't cancelled, that would make her almost useless. Even if cancelling Surge and Doomed, I find her only average, depending on circumstances and scenarios.

Shnik said:

I also use to thing she is a weak hero. But after i try her couples of time she is start to be one of my favorite hero. She have good status and quite low therat level. Than she can safe your ass sometimes is really important. If you have test of will in your hand you know for sure you can handle all revealed effects.

I already make quite powerful decks and her ability is really important in those decks. If she also able to cancel surge and doom effect is to powerful in this case and you get so big advantage against current encounter decks which is one already (special after all AP released) is quite weak against players decks(except Osgiuliath). I will welcome everything now what is make game more difficult.

pumpkin said:

That would seem to confirm GhostWolf's interpretation.

But yeah, we really need an official clarification on this in order to be sure.

You hear that, Fantasy Flight designer dudes? That's your cue

Venthrac said:

I don't see the link you're talking about. Where is it?