In the section describing the creation of Daemon weapons, it seems the number of degrees of success on the ritual determines the Binding Strength (BS) of the weapon. However, the BS actually decreases the number of attributes the weapon has. So the better you roll, the worse your weapon. Are there any other mechanisms in the game that deal with BS? I understand that conceptually , you'd want a more tightly bound daemon, but I want to make sure I'm not missing a stated rule.

kieran57 said:

Page 194 - when making a Daemonic Mastery Test to wield a Daemon Weapon (or to stop it trying to take control), the Daemon suffers a penalty on its Willpower Test to equal to 5x the Binding Strength.

Basically, the higher the Binding Strength, the safer the weapon is, at the cost of a reduced number of attributes. A Lord of Change (WP 81) in a Binding Strength 1 weapon may have 7 attributes, adding it's Infamy of 50 to one of those rolls on the Attributes tables... but you've also got to make an Opposed Willpower Test against a modified Willpower of 76 to wield the weapon in the first place, and to keep it from possessing you if you get knocked unconscious or are stunned. If you can stack the right bonuses on the Daemonic Mastery Test (having the Mark of Tzeentch and knowing the daemon's True Name would be most helpful in the example above) it might work out OK, but all in all you want to find some sort of balance between terrifying power and not having the daemon in the weapon take over your body and leave you stuck in that sword.

What he said. I think that these rules are a great representation of the old risk vs power dynamic present with chaos. My hat is off to whomever came up with this simple, elegant and fun rule!

Hygric said:

That would be me

Nice work on the daemon weapon rules.

Though I gotta posit the notion... it seems to me that not all daemons would loathe becoming a daemon weapon, necessarily. In particular, were I about to become a daemon prince, making arrangements for my friends (and I mean friends, not "treacherous flunkies") to make me a daemon weapon and con an astartes, or an even tougher (or perhaps, more enjoyable) host into picking it up. I assume that a daemon possessing a mortal gets to experience life through that host, right?

Although swords are probably the coolest, if you're still going to be the leader, you should probably go with a pistol of some kind.

Deinos said:

Who'd want to be The One Ring and have Gollum drooling over you in a cave for 500 years when you can be all Dark Lord & Great Eye from your imaginatively named lair? Daemons don't like to be bound into objects; its boring .

To be bound is to be subservient and restricted - NO daemon enjoys that, even the kinkier slaneeshy aligned ones!

Well, if you're possessing your host, I'm not sure its boring or restricting.

@Deinos

Though I gotta posit the notion... it seems to me that not all daemons would loathe becoming a daemon weapon, necessarily. In particular, were I about to become a daemon prince, making arrangements for my friends (and I mean friends, not "treacherous flunkies") to make me a daemon weapon and con an astartes, or an even tougher (or perhaps, more enjoyable) host into picking it up. I assume that a daemon possessing a mortal gets to experience life through that host, right?

I don't think there are many forms a Daemon Prince would enjoy more than his own. To quote someone...

I don't want to be human! I want to see gamma rays! I want to hear X-rays! And I want to - I want to smell dark matter! Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can't even express these things properly because I have to - I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid limiting spoken language! But I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws! And feel the wind of a supernova flowing over me! And I can know much more! I can experience so much more. But I'm trapped in this absurd body!

Deinos said:

But that assumes that you've managed to break free of the weapon's bindings.

Possession of a living creature or animate object (such as a vehicle) seem to be ways for a daemon to inhabit something and get something out of it. Being bound into an inanimate object, or otherwise being restrained (such as being bound into a Daemonhost and thus restricted in what it can do, compared to other types of possession) can be seen as forms of enslavement, imprisonment or subjugation for a daemon.

"But that assumes that you've managed to break free of the weapon's bindings."

So are you saying if a daemon weapon possesses someone, whoops, that daemon weapon is no more and the daemon is free, or does "breaking free of the weapon's bindings" just refer to overpowering the host's will despite the +5% to his willpower test? As I was under the impression that if you get possessed by a daemon weapon, its controlling you through the weapon, and so if its current host dies, you can just force a new prisoner to pick it up.

And I'm sure some daemon princes don't like the Materium... but I'm sure some do.

Deinos said:

Yes, some greatly enjoy the Materium. But generally they enjoy it when they are in their true, glorious(horrifying), forms. If they are bound into a weapon they literally can do nothing. Their essence warps the weapon into something unreal, but they do not wield their own power. They do not strike down the fools who oppose them, nor can they bring a great and terrible torment on whatever flesh-thing they wish.

They are trapped, and must obey some insolent Mortal with the temerity to bind a Daemon. And once bound, there is nothing they can do to break free. Even if they possess their wielder, they are not free, meerly controlling a meat puppet that holds their bound form. In order to be free, the weapon binding them must be destroyed.

It is not the fact that they are bound that enrages daemons, They can be bound into vehicles comparatively easily, just look at the Defiler. It is the fact that they are bound, and powerless by themselves. A daemon weapon is not let loose onto the field of battle to reap a bloody tally of death and carnage, they are unsheathed to be swung around by some mortal until they deem the battle over, and then put away.

In short, Daemons hate being used as glorified equipment.

Then again, you can always attempt to trick/decieve/backstab a demon by binding it in a weapon rather than a host.

IE: Summon fleshhound or bloodletter, let them know for their compliance you will resummon it into a permanent form that will be able to kill untold millions over the aeons. They think they will get a host or maybe a vehicle and in truth they will be a demon weapon. May even get a bonus to the tests since they aren't fighting you and if tzeencth it may get a bonus for being deceiving.

I was curious if anyone has used the rules for Demonhosts from DH for their games yet, or rules for merging minor demons and mortals in a possessed marine like fashion? Also, anyone think a demon would willingly allow itself to be bound in a once bound demonhost so it can have a semi-permanent existance on the material plane.

Betraying a Daemon is risky, but workable. And bound to entertaining if nothing else!

As to the Daemonhost, I don't think any would willingly go into any bound host, but some would accept an unbound host. Of course, then you have no control over said inter-dimensional nasty, but that's Chaos for you.

I was flipping through the book after reading some of "A Thousand Sons" and thought it would be cool to have a daemon familiar. But I can't find anyplace in there about binding a daemon to your will and forcing it to serve. I'm not even entirely sure on how you could force a daemon to reveal its true name.

the demon familier would probably come under minion talents , if it like the ones described in thousand sons id say a lesser minion you'd have to play around and see what you get

Only a Greater Minion can have the Daemonic trait.

Can rules for binding daemons into weapons be used to bind them into pieces of armour?
Whole new table of abilities would have to be mae but having deamon bound power armour sounds cool.

@Psyker11

Only a Greater Minion can have the Daemonic trait.

As long as you're content with your familiar merely possessing and reforming some animal instead of being there "in the flesh" (er... let me rephrase that...), a Lesser daemonic familiar would be entirely possible. You could even easily recover the familiar in the case of its death - just catch another creature and re-bind the daemon into it.

@ShadowRay

Can rules for binding daemons into weapons be used to bind them into pieces of armour?
Whole new table of abilities would have to be mae but having deamon bound power armour sounds cool.

I can't see why it wouldn't be possible. Of course, it may be somewhat harder - weapons are items of death, destruction, pain and active change, all traits associated with chaos, while armour is generally rather passive and even more "boring" for a warp entity residing within than a weapon would be.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Thanks! I just totally missed that rule.