I now have Iroh, Mizu, and Itami, and none of them have included Challenges. I didn't notice at first because I don't use them very often.

They could always be released at a later date. The problem with challenges is that not all characters have them and they add an additional level to the game which can have quite an effect. I have not used them and really do not have the inclination to do so because of the additional record keeping.

Yes, I noticed it too. i'm not really sad to see they go as they actually never had much use inmy own games. In fact I prefer the Bonus Packs as they area real addition to the character strategies. BTW by removing the Challenge tokens FFG also reduced the token sheets from two to one and stopped giving these extra useless Crate Tokens...

I like the challenges, but feel like someone awesome (nudge nudge @Doc, Plage, Miah, Rhydderch...) should make challenges for all the characters without any. I would love to see them be even more fun, like instead of CP you get to do a single cool thing that fits with your character (more like an achievement)

Basically buff the character who did something cool, but you can only do the one challenge you happened to get this game- and it has a specific buff it gives for doing it- and make all the achievements be something you must do one time or all in a single activation/turn.

Example for Hoax:

Combat Achievement: Deal a wound with a ranged weapon shot while invisible. Afterwards you may choose to only use 4 dice for any ranged weapon while invisible, but remain invisible after the shot.

Stamina Achievement: Resist all attack successes against you while invisible-perhaps those of a grenade- without spending a command point to shake a wound or utilizing Bar-Room Brawler. Afterwards smoke doesn't break your invisibility as long as you spend 2 movement points per circle entered instead of the usual 1.

Mental Achievement: Pick up an item using one Hoax (this may have been traded to you from an ally) and pass that item using another Hoax (this may be an ally taking it from you as their action)- From now on trading items or checking crates may be performed by Hoax using a command point instead of consuming her action.

Special Achievement: Pass through 3 enemies in one movement: You may forgo the free basic melee attack due to a bullrush failing against you to end the active characters activation.

Maybe it's too much, but it just seems like a cool idea so thought I'd throw it out there =P

I do not really care about challenges. I never use them, mainly because not all chars have challenges. I suspect that FFG realized that challenges do not have a great impact on the community and not including them in shogunate packs is some kind of way to let them "fade out" of the system. I will not shed a tear, though...

After discussing it with my wife who works as a grapic artist for the gov't, I really just think it's a cost saving measure. FFG wants the single packs to be a reasonable price so folks will buy them. But now they have the extra cost of the equipment cards, so by eliminating the second token punch sheet, they rebalence their costs and maintain their previous profit margin without increasing consumer costs.

Your point on cost is certainly valid. I am still confused by what direction FFG is taking this game if at all. I have spoken with quite a few x-players of the game and it is clear that the old rules did not sit well with them and no effort had been made by them, to try the game again. My demonstration games at the store elicted quite a bit of interest but it is clear that FFG need that new rule book. The lack of a replacement rule book may well have a lot to do with why this game continues to languish as there were many people who picked up the original game.

In my recently purchased box were two help sheets. I did not realize until I started playing the game that they were for the old rules. This immediately raises a red flag for me that no one has even bothered to remove them from the box, misleading as they are. The expansions and new book, if they are released, will certainly add to the range but they need the stand alone rule book to bring back some of the previous players. They also need some clear direction for this game and I am already concerned that it may not be big enough to get the attention it needs. For me, there is no serious reason to buy the game other than reading other's enthusiasm such as Miah's blog, which was the deciding factor for me.

The game has great maps, painted figures and a level of complexity which makes it a challenge in a time frame that should work for most players. It also has a great variety and the LOS rules are really an excellent game design. It has a significant replayability factor. All in all, I am would say that the only thing this game is missing is a major hook to drag more players in. Anyway, just a few thoughts.

Horsa said:

To continue the thread-jack, I think a lot of us agree with your points. When the game first came out, the pathfinder system and theme were great hooks. The game also had a lot of support from TOY at the fan level. Unfortunately, the original rules turned many people away from the game. FFG's re-design of the rules is an improvement. However, once burned, twice shy - most of the ex-players and potential players seem to be wary of the game. Its really an uphill battle because of the bad impressions that people had and its not helped by the introduction of other, more popular, weird war games such as Dust Tactics. FFG's decision to sell the new rulebook, while understandable, certainly did not help. Most of the core rules are included in their preview but it sent out the wrong message to a crowd that was already biased against the game.

I do think its high time for FFG to release a PDF version since all the current fans should have the book by now and the new players will get one automatically with the game. I'm not sure it would make much of a difference though. Unfortunately, as you noted, the game needs a bigger hook to get people to try it again. I doubt the game will get one since Dust is so popular right now and fills the same thematic niche. I guess FFG could market the two games together with Dust Warfare as the full wargame, Tactics as the squad level game, and Tannhauser as the skirmish level game. The two have distinct backgrounds tho, and I personally prefer if the two games / worlds are kept separate.

The game may get a small boost from the recent expansions. New material usually piques interest. In Tannhauser's case, it also sends out the message that FFG does plan to continue the line, at least for now. That is important since people wondered where the game would go after the last of the TOY preview material was released. Anyway, aside from those, on the fan level, demos and word of mouth might give the game a boost.

Hmmm didn't notice they were gone actually. But lose em or keep em, I am really not inclined to care either way. If we (the consumers) were to gain something by losing them I am all for getting rid of them, I rarely use them. When DA and myself play a game, we tend to have challenges set in our own mind (Yula breaks the magnifier, for example) and the only reward is the smug feeling from completion!

@Horsa

Yea that's been a confusion of mine as well. I probably would have been frustrated by the game had i gotten it when I first saw it, but I waited until I'd got a good group of guys to game with. However, since I'm a big mod person we probably would've changed it to make it more fun regardless.

I honestly think the game needs just more exposure. I let everyone I game with know about it, and for the most part people like it. I actively try to promote it because I love the game and want FFG to keep making more stuffs. Although apparently the game store we order through has been selling out of Mizu and Itami, so maybe there is more love for it than I knew about in the area.

@Nobikaigan

Haha posting on the FFG forums at work for the win!

Nobikaigan said:

And what a good feeling THIS really is!

My next challenge is not to get roasted in the first turn by the flame grenade. I am so excited if that works out ...

I think it was the second turn, Katsuyori - but I don´t mind ;-)

Say hooray if the challenges will be replaced by some bonus packs or tokens ^^

None of the base characters for reich, union or matriarchy characters of challenges. So why would the Shogunate. Individual addition characters do. I think those characters form the core of the Shogunate, so like other core they don't have challenges. They were just released like individual characters to keep HInasho cost down probably. That was my understanding after looking at which characters have challenges and which don't.

Azanael said:

Right... Ok, next challenge: want to survive until the 4th turn vs Azanael´s Union Team

Grayle said:

Just right so!

The challenge tokens could have quite an effect on a game because of the 3 Command points the completed challege gives you at any time you wish. Problem is that the tokens are selected at random, so you just can't select a token that fits the scenario, fits your tactic or is just easy to complete. Furthermore, MY problem is that I always forget about the challenges during gameplay and I always have to look them up again. There aren't equipment cards for the challenges, or did I just overlook them?

No, there are indeed no challenge-cards.

The fact that there are no card for challenges probably shows that FFG never fully embraced their inclusion, and now that we've moved passed all the characters originally developed by TOY; FFG is taking the opertunity to save costs, by phasing out something they never really liked anyway.

But I could be wrong, we may find a dozen challenge tokens on the Operation: Hinansho punch sheets.

Miah999 said:

Miah said Op Hinasho is out this weekend!!!! You said that right?

Not really, I'm not expecting OH till the end of the month.

Great, not before new years Eve in germany, I suppose. They take some hell of a time to get to german retailers, and there are so few, too...

Katsuyori said:

... and there are no big suprises any more three or four weeks after their official release (when they arrive in germany), since nearly half of the users here have told us everything about the new tokens, rules, effects, etc.

But at least it won´t take till early 2012 to see operation Hinasho ^^

I really have no idea why you guys complain about it, i live in Brazil and i have no other choice other then import any board game from any company. So you guys have it easy! =P

Azanael said:

I actually like to read information about the new products, especially the opinion of players who already have bought and better yet played them. It's really interesting, and it helps me to decide which products I really need or which I need immediately. Problem is, right now everything seems very cool and I need it as soon as possible.

Now back to topic: I suppose the next Shogunate characters that will be released will have Challenge tokens. The first three didn't get any because the first three characters belonging to the other factions didn't get Challenges either.