Over on the BGG forums, one person asked whether to resolve "When Revealed" texts when (a) using Eleanor's ability and (b) during the setup to Dol Guldur.

Nate French confirmed that Eleanor's replacement card DOES execute its When Revealed text, and the Objectives in Dol Guldur during setup are "attached", not "revealed", so that text would not trigger.

Here's the link to the BGG thread: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/708411/no-for-dol-guldur-but-yes-for-eleanor

That should answer a few questions, I hope.

Yeah, good to know.

Thx for posting

Awesome. I was right about Eleanor.

Good to know for Dol Guldur though. I would have guessed they were still being revealed since cards flipping during setup are supposed to resolve at that point.

So if you attach a treachery card to one of the objectives...it doesn't do anything and just gets discarded since it wasn't revealed?

Yeah, I can live with that. Definitely.

radiskull said:

(But I was wrong about Eleanor, the replaced card's "when revealed" is also resolved) That was man saying on the Board game forum.

So it mean the card which replaced by Eleanor when revealed effect resolve.But you sad: DOES EXECUTE ITS WHEN REVEALED EFFECT.

SO it mean is not resolve???? OR my English is really bad and i dont understand something?????

Glaurung said:

DOES execute its when revealed effect means that yes, you resolve the when revealed effect.

I was the one asking, and I was hoping neither case (Eleanor's replaced encounter card & Dol Guldur set up encounter cards) will resolve. And I do not want to make things easier on players in general, by no means. But Dol Guldur is very hard from the start, especially solo it seems almost impossible, and this makes it definitely more playable, the one must just be praying for Caught in the Web or Eyes of the Forest in the set up.

When I said I do not want things easier on the players, I meant Eowyn for instance. She is perhaps too powerful. And I do not want to start another thread about that, I just thought if the replaced card's (triggered by Eleanor's response ability) had not resolve, it would have made Eleanor a really interesting hero, and I for one would consider using her ability much more often than I do now whenever I play her.

Just thoughts. I am glad we know the answers now!

radiskull said:

Added both to the FAQ.

I think this means FFG should also update their FAQ to avoid confusion because in the rulebook it says that Surge and Doomed trigger any time the card is revealed (so wouldn't trigger when attached during set up) BUT their FAQ entry 1.01 uses the term enters play, which would suggest they do trigger during set up of Dol Guldur.

The FAQ entry should probably be changed to use the wording

Surge, Doomed, and Guarded keywords should be resolved any time the card on which they occur is revealed, including during setup.

Unless of course they should trigger during set up of Dol Guldur, in which case the FAQ should clearly state that.

Svenn said:

Ok thanks Friend. I always use to play like this anyway. But for Setup i was not sure. So this make this quest more easy.

beside of the changed wording in FAQ 1.01 there may be also a clarification of FAQ entry 1.22 necessary

(1.22) "When Revealed" Effects
A card is only considered to be revealed if the card or
game effect causing the card to enter play specifically
uses a form of the word "reveal".

In the 2 examples asked in the mail to Nate, the Dol Guldur set up uses the word 'attach' and the 'when revealed' is not triggered -> compliant to FAQ.. Eleanors ability uses 'replace' and the 'when revealed' effect is triggerd -> not compliant, as the game effetc the card enters play does not use a form of the word 'reveal'

Hence the FAQ entry 1.22 becomes useless if I have again to think each time if the 'when revealed' is triggered or not -'attach'does not, but 'replace' does trigger.

Or there could be a clarification in the next FAQ on Eleanors ability like ' ....card is replaced by revealing the next card from encounter deck'

I respect if this is the intention of the game designer, but I am confused by wording,, and if a general clarification as FAQ entry 1.22 is not really general

Samuraibel said:

Actually, the word replace here can work fine. You are replacing a revealed card, thus the replacement is considered revealed. Replace means you are taking another card and putting it in place of it.

So, you reveal a card, then using Eleanor you decide to replace it. You are still in the process of revealing a card, but the original card was replaced with a new card, thus the new card is still considered to be revealed.

This is how I've seen it all along, so it makes sense to me. I do agree that it would be less confusing for most players if it simply said "reveal the next card from the deck".

pumpkin said:

Except that the rules state "if an encounter card with the doomed keyword is revealed during the staging step of the quest phase..."

and surge also clearly states during the staging step of the quest phase, so during the setup phase i thought it was pretty clearly defined from the get go that those keywords DON'T come in to play

unless of course i am missing something, but for all the rules that are not very clear in the rule book, i felt that those 2 were very straight foward

jackstatic said:

You are missing the FFG FAQ, where they state that "surge, doomed and guarded should be resolved any time they enter play, including during set up"

Now the question is that during the set up of Dol Guldur, Nate has said that "When revealed" does not triggeer because the cards are attached not revealed (all well and good), but in the case of the FAQ, it doesn't use the term revealed when talking about surge, doomed or guarded, it uses the term enters play, So by that wording Surge, doomed and guarded would still trigger when cards are attached (not revealed) during the set-up of Dol Guldur - that might be the intention, but possibly it isn't and the FAQ should be clarified.

Basically, FFG (Nate) has now begun to put specific meaning to the word revealed and made that a critical in determining if a When revealed effect occurs or not, which is fair enough, but in doing so, we need to make sure that FAQs use the very specific wording when neccessary.

Currently

Revealed is not the same as attached but enters play covers revealing and attaching, but I'm not sure if that is the intention of how surge, doomed and guarded should be played...

Did that make any sense!?!?!?

I think Surge, Doomed, and Guarded would still happen even when attached during Dol Guldur setup. Those keywords are separate from the "When Revealed:" card text. What Nate is saying is that the "When Revealed:" effect can't happen because the card was attached instead of revealed during special quest card setup instructions. The reveal requirement for the effect is not met.

Surge, Doomed, and Guarded would come into effect as usual since the card is simply coming into play period. Those keywords don't have a reveal requirement.

Unless it is officially ruled that Surge, Doomed, and Guarded are ignored when attached to objectives during setup, I'm going to keep letting them do their thing and openly weeping when they do so.

Wait wait wait, ok, just saw the FAQ version 1.1....

So... the rules for surge and doomed were essentially changed. I kinda gotta disagree with this being placed under the section titled "rules clarification" and not under a section called rules change or errata, considering this isn't a clarification but indeed an actual change.

I guess I just missed it since I had 0 issue understanding that rule and didn't need a clarification so I just skipped the section.

Thanks guys for clearing that up for me tho :-)

I'm confused now...

Does this mean I should still execute the "Guarded" Keyword on the Objectives in Dol Goldur? Effectively attaching TWO cards on each?

Seems like it, since a) The "Guarded" Keyword has not yet executed, we have simply followed Set Up instructions and "Attached" Encounter cards to them. and b) an Objective Card can of course have multiple Attached Cards.

/wolf

That is how you would have played it if you actually had thought the "when revealed" had resolved. But now it is easy, attach one encounter to each objective, surge and doomed apply, "when revealed" do not.

The guarded keyword is irrelevant as the encounter does not enter play from the encounter deck during staging. That is why the set up tells you to attach a card. And since it says attach and not attach and reveal, the "when revealed" do not resolve. All clear?

Marlow said:

I agree with all of this, even openly weeping, but as the ruelbook specifically uses the term revealed in conjunction with Surge and Doomed, it's difficult to say for certain if the term "enters play" used in the FAQ was a concious decision by FFG to make a distinction for those cards being different from a "When revealed" or not.

So I don't quite agree with all of it in hindsight; I don't agree with your statement above, because as far as the ruelbook is concerned those keywords DO have a reveal requirement....

OK, how about this:

Journey to Rhosgobel, Athelas objectives and Forest Grove location:

Forest Grove

Response: After the players explore Forest Grove, search the encounter deck and discard pile for 1 Athelas objective, and add it to the staging area. Then, shuffle the encounter deck.

So does the Guarded keyword on the Athelas apply when the Athelas are added to the staging area this way? And if so, would a treachery card that is attached to the Athelas fire off its When Revealed effect?

I ruled tonight that the Guarded keyword did apply but I snuffed out the treachery card that was attached (mainly because it wiped out about 4 of our Heroes). I just pretended that the treachery card was not revealed based on the Dol Guldur setup ruling. I bent the rules and cheated didn't I? It's ok, reprimand me! At least I saved four heroes.

You cheated, sadly. The FAQ specifies that:

Surge, Doomed, and Guarded keywords should be
resolved any time the card on which they occur enters
play, including during setup.

The rulebook also states:

The guarded keyword is a reminder on some objective
cards to reveal and attach the next card of the encounter
deck to the objective when it enters the staging area
from the encounter deck...

Sorry to say, but I think your heroes bit it. Although I'd be tempted to do exactly as you did in those circumstances. Not that it helps you, but if you were really super worried, you didn't HAVE to trigger Forest Grove's response...

pumpkin said:

I disagree here guys; Rule Book definition of Doomed X:

"Doomed X
If an encounter card with the doomed keyword is revealed during the staging step of the quest phase, each player must raise his threat level by the specified value."

And Surge:

"Surge
When an encounter card with the surge keyword is revealed during the staging step of the quest phase, reveal 1 additional card from the encounter deck. Resolve the surge keyword immediately after resolving any when revealed effects on the card."

I would argue that the Word "Revealed" is very much required to trigger these effects.

And the FAQ says "A card is only considered to be revealed if the card or game effect causing the card to enter play specifically uses a form of the word "reveal"."

So me personally can't see a middle ground here where some effects that require the word "reveal" are triggered while others are not. It's either or in my book.

As for Dol Goldur setup... I place the objectives in the Staging area and execute it's Guraded keyword. Nate can say whatever he likes about that, but that's the way I do it.

/wolf

I'm with you GhostWolf, that's how I play it too. Makes more sense to me.

GhostWolf69 said:

You missed this little beauty in the FAQ:

(1.01) Encounter Keywords
Surge, Doomed, and Guarded keywords should be resolved any time the card on which they occur enters play, including during setup.

The FAQ amended the rules on Surge and Doomed to be enters play instead of revealed.

As far as Escape from Dol Guldur's set-up is concerned, does placing a card in the staging area during set-up constitute a card entering play? If "no," there's no problem with the way the quest card is worded. If "yes," you now get two cards attached to each objective, for a total of six cards to start your quest. Three of which are revealed.

I want to argue "no" for two reasons.

1) You have just looked through the entire encounter deck, and you know what the top three cards are (or you should). Normally when the encounter deck reveals cards, what you are getting is supposed be a surprise, however unpleasant.

2) That's 6 cards in the staging area and -1 hero for the players before the game even begins. That would make Escape from Dol Guldur as difficult if not more difficult than Massing at Osgiliath.

Disclaimer: I realize that both arguments are solely based on opinion, and carry no weight in this rules-based discussion.

Kiwina said:

By the wording on the quest card you actually shuffle before attaching to the objectives, so you shouldn't have any idea what the 3 cards you are about to attach are.

I agree you shouldn't end up with 9(which I think is what you meant!!) cards (3 objectives and 2 guarding each objective) in the staging area.

What is less clear though is does doomed or surge trigger if one of the cards you draw to attach to an objective has that keyword?

Less clear for me anyway.

The three attached cards are a mystery, but if you also activated the guarded keyword in addition to that, I was thinking those cards wouldn't be a mystery. I guess you'd resolve Guarded after setup was finished though so my first reason is null and void.

Yes, I did mean nine cards. Six that are adding threat to the staging area.

I guess that depends on if they are entering play or not. I kind of think they are. I also kind of think the three objectives are as well.