On another thread I mooted the idea that in my view the number of Iron Hands successors was likely to be in the region of 10-20 chapters that know of their ancestry, and perhaps another 5 who didn’t.

That was just plucking numbers out of the air, of course, but it got me thinking about the numbers of other loyalist chapters out there who carry the geneseed of the founding legions.

So while we’re plucking numbers out of the air, here are some vague ideas on the topic. Not canon, but based on canon:

Ultra Helix – 60% of marine chapters (600) carry Ultramarine geneseed, by far the most stable and mutation-free helix available.

Pugnus Helix – 15% of marine chapters (150) carry the Imperial Fist geneseed. This is a stable and reliable geneseed, but is regarded as slightly less efficacious than the ultra helix due to the loss of a small number of marine implants through mutation.

Umbra Helix – Around 10% of Marine Chapters (100) bear the geneseed of theDark Angels. This geneseed is largely mutation free and stable, and indeed would be used more widely if not for the Adeptus Terra’s suspicion of the insular and secretive Dark Angels, who wield what is regarded as undue influence over their successor chapters.

Fulmen Helix – 8% of marine chapters (80) use the White Scar geneseed, making it relatively popular. It is a stable geneseed with few mutations, but the chapters created by it are often regarded as fractious, warlike and occasionally politically uncontrollable.

The Helix Sanguine – about 3% of marine chapters (30) carry this helix, which was popular during earlier foundings due to the notable loyalty and dedication of the Blood Angels shown during the Horus Heresy. However, the geneseed has fallen out of favour due to clear instabilities, notably the “flaw” which causes a kind of violent psychosis. Later attempts during the cursed founding to rectify these have not been successful. Few later foundings utilise the helix sanguine.

Ferrum Helix – less than 1% of chapters (10) bear the Iron Hands’ geneseed, largely due to that chapter’s reluctance to allow foundings based upon their geneseed.

Canis Helix – the Space Wolves geneseed is another extremely rare helix, used in only around 0.3% of marine chapters overall. (3)

Nex Helix – Around 1% of chapters (10) bear the geneseed of the Raven Guard. The numbers of the Raven Guard were never high, and the slight cosmetic mutation caused by the geneseed causes them to be regarded with some suspicion by the Adeptus Terra, leading to relatively few successors.

Ignis Helix – There are no known Salamanders successors, partly due to the highly visible nature of the cosmetic mutation which afflicts the Chapter.

Other sources – the remaining 1.7% of chapters draw (17) geneseed from other sources. These may be chimaeric in nature, with geneseed from different chapters merged together during a period of experimentation, or, more rarely, chapters which draw geneseed from forbidden or traitor geneseed. For example, the canon hints that the Blood Ravens draw their geneseed from the thousand sons. Alternatively, the geneseed may derive from existing loyalist chapters, but be so heavily modified that it is in effect totally new.

I would also say that around 10-20% of chapters out there don’t know what geneseed they carry, having lost records during the thousands of years of Imperial history.

These are only my figures, just setting out a general "feel" for the numbers involved. I would also say there's a lot of room for variance, at least 2 percentage points in either direction.

Any thoughts?

You could use this table to randomly generate geneseed for a chapter, too:

D1000 (roll a D10 three times)

Roll Result
001-600 Ultra Helix
601-750 Pugnus Helix
751-850 Umbra Helix
851-930 Fulmen Helix
931-960 The Helix Sanguine
961-970 Ferrum Helix
971-973 Canis Helix
974-984 Nex Helix
985-000 Other sources

Interesting idea and not bad work at all

All I would add is there's probably more Blood Angels successor Chapters out there than suggested and the Canis Helix should be at 0.1% as only one successor was ever tried from the SpaceWolves, the ill fated Wolf Brothers. That and Russ basically told Guilleman what he thought of the Codex (which does mean that the Wolves are still, technically, a Legion ;-) ).

Nice work. Really nice. And way more loyal to canon than the D100 table in Rites of Battle.

Nice work there. Logically considers canon sources.

And while we're here, some suggestions for the names of geneseed for all of the remaining original Legions:-

Luna Helix - Black Legion

Mortis Helix - Death Guard

Alpha Helix - Alpha Legion

Aquila Helix - Emperor's Children

Helix Vates - Thousand Sons

Helix Furorum - World Eaters (I would have preferred "Helix Canis Bellum" but I suspect that would cause confusion with the Space wolves.)

Ceryx Helix - Word Bearers

Metus Helix - Night Lords

The Helix Arxcalco - Iron Wariors

All this "helix" stuff comes from references to the "Ultra Helix" and the "Canis Helix" in the canon as being the official names for the Ultramarine and Space Wolves geneseed respectively. I couldn;t give you an exact source for this, but I've seen references to both of them somewhere.

I've just extrapolated from this to set out some (entirely speculative) suggested names for the geneseed of the various original Legions. Most are self explanatory, but of the ones that aren't include the Helix Vates ("Seer Helix") for the Thousand Sons, the Metus Helix ("Helix of Fear") for the Night Lords, the Ceryx Helix ("Helix of the Herald") for the Wordbearers and the Helix Arxcalco ("citadel crusher"...er slightly mistranslated...sort of deliberately. Sort of.) for the Iron warriors.

I'm not entirely happy with the last one to be honest, but a straight translation of the "iron" part seems more fitting to the Iron Hands, really...

Very nice work mate!

Indeedy, nice work! Although the Helix thing is still a bit of a (Canon) mystery as the Canis Helix isn't the term for the SpaceWolf geneseed, but rather a sub-genetic trait that is the cause for the Wulfen. Contrary to popular belief the Wulfen is not a "Geneseed Mutation" but a deliberate factor built into the creation of the SpaceWolves legion. Or, as we like to think of it, some science guy one day said to the Emperor... "My Lord Emperor. We've just worked out how to make Werewolf Astartes!" to which the reply was "Well, we HAVE to make that happen. Do it, do it now!"

Moirdryd said:

I'm sure I've seen the Canis Helix mentioned outside of the context of the Wulfen before...and like I say, I've also seen mention of the Ultra Helix too. Though I need to do my homework to find actual sources!

That said, I do agree with your wider point - that the Emperor deliberately engineered the individual Legion's geneseed for differing specific purposes. In "Prospero Burns" a Space Wolf tells the protaganist that the Space Wolves were designed from the ground up to be the Emperor's Executioners, killers who woulod obey any order, even one to turn against their fellow Astartes. Hence the choice of the Space Wolves to destroy the Thousand Sons.

This links in to another theory of mine that I might as well also explore on this thread, while I'm randomly spewing out ideas: that each Legion and/or Primarch was designed with a specific role in mind. So here are a few thoughts:-

Salamanders/Death Guard/Iron Hands - The Emperor's infantry. These guys were genetically engineered as heavy infantry. Thier purpose was to act as the footslogging core of the legions where an assault that was likely to have massive casualties on the attackers was required. As such, these chapters were engineered to be tough, fatalistic and unshockable, capable of shrugging off huge injuries, and stoically coping with the loss of thousands of their fellow legionaries.

Raven Guard - The Emperor's Scouts. Infiltrators and scouts, the Raven Guard were designed to be a highly mobile scouting force.

Night Lords - The Emperor's Terrorists. Designed to be the Emperor's terror troops. The Emperor may not have intended Konrad Curze to go quite as loony as he did, but the chapter were created with the intention to subdue planatary populations through focussed terror attacks against vulnerable parts of an enemy infrastructure

Dark Angels/Ultramarines/Emperor's Children/Luna Wolves/White Scars - The Emperor's Legionaries. Designed to be the heart of the Great Crusade, each of these these Legions was intended to form an elite unit , but also to act as an "officer class" among the wider Imperial military, wielding both strategic and tactical power. The Primarchs from these legions were intended to command more than just their own legions: each was to be an accomplished general capable of commanding wider mixed formations of astartes and non astartes forces.

World Eaters/Blood Angels - the Emperor's Berserkers. Designed to be fontline assault troops capable of tearing the heart out of any opposition.

The Thousand Sons - The Emperor's Seers. The Horus Heresy books hint that the Emperor had plans for Magnus, specifically that he was to power the Astronomicon through his enormous psychic power. However, he turned traitor, so that plan had to be abandoned. Perhaps (random speculation on my part) Magnus was the real object of the creation of the Thousand Sons Legion, and his astartes were sort of a beneficial side effect of the project?

The Alpha Legion - The Emperor's Spies. Genetically engineered to be cunning and creative thinkers, the Alpha Legion were intended to create intelligence networks,perform assasinations and to come up with creative solutions to military problems.

The Imperial Fists - the Emperor's Praetorians. Genetically engineered for stolidity, loyalty and stubborness, this legion was designed to act as a defensive force capable of holding the line and acting as a strategic reserve for the other legions.

The Iron Warriors - the Emperor's siegemasters. Self explanatory, really. However, the cunning, introspective and cold intelligence engineered into the Legion in order to fulfill this role led in part to their rebelling against Terra.

The Wordbearers - the Emperor's heralds. Designed to act as a standalone military force advancing ahead of the main body of the Great Crusade and to attempt to peacefully sway the human worlds encountered to join the Imperium. Created using genetic markers found in the most convincing and eloquent cult leaders and rabble rousers, the Emperor allowed for evangelical fervour regarding the Imperium's teachings, but didn;t consider how the drive to spirituality encoded in the Legion's geneseed could backfire and create a messiah complex in its Primarch.

The Space Wolves - The Emperor's Executioners. Designed as ruthless but intelligent killers, capable of taking an internal policing role within the Astartes where necessary. It's possible that the Space Wolves have stayed true to secret orders from the Emperor/Russ to this effect, hence their relative lack of successor Chapters subsequently.

My thinking is that the Emperor had a plan. Remember, he's immortal, so plans on a very long term scale! The plan went in two phases:

(1) The Primarchs lead the Legions on the Great Crusade, conquering the galaxy. Each Primarch leads his own Legion and supporting military forces, sometimes formed into larger groupings under the command of notably more successful Primarchs. At this stage, the Legion's Astartes act as an officer class for the rest of the Imperial Military, and also act as an elite unit within each conquest fleet. As such, at this stage, each Legion has more of an "all rounder" role than was originally intended - but that's OK, as each Legion is also designed to be a good "all rounder" force, and is equipped to fulfill any military role.

(2) Once the galaxy is conquered, the Imperial Military is redesigned, and the Legions each fulfill specific roles in the new order. It is possible that the Emperor anticipated the death of the Primarchs, perhaps through old age, perhaps in battle, and engineered the Legions so that each could carry out their original role in the absence of their founder. So under the conquered galaxy, the Alpha Legion might have acted as spymasters, the Night Lords as a terror force to keep the Imperium in line, and the Space Wolves as a force to keep the Legions in line.

However, this plan was messed up by the Horus Heresy...

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Whaddaya reckon?

Just wanted to say that there are known - CANON (as in, appear in recent novels) Successors of the Salamanders. Not many mind you, but they do exist.

Any thoughts on where the two missing legions might fit into all this, or is that question simply too wide open?

Actually I love the names you have given the gene seeds. For the gene seeds from the two missing Primarch, I suggest naming them the "John Doe Helix".

In fact, I might want to use them as call signs for my party.

Lightbringer said:

Hi,

The exclusive purpose of the legions was to conquer the galaxy in a great crusade, the diferences between the legions are due to the character of their primarch, not to Emperor´s planning. The Emperor wanted a enligthed humanity, so space marines as terror force vs imperial citizens wa not on his plan. And during the Horus Heresy, until the end, the Emperor could not believe he can be betrayed by his sons or his legions, so Space Wolves as a space marine killers is a big no. The only canon about this space wolves role is that they were the only chapter with no worries about figthing brother marines. That wa in the 30K, even in the 40K they aro not the "space-marine killer" chapter, they are the Minotaurs.

Lightbringer said:

Hi,

The exclusive purpose of the legions was to conquer the galaxy in a great crusade, the diferences between the legions are due to the character of their primarch, not to Emperor´s planning. The Emperor wanted a enligthed humanity, so space marines as terror force vs imperial citizens wa not on his plan. And during the Horus Heresy, until the end, the Emperor could not believe he can be betrayed by his sons or his legions, so Space Wolves as a space marine killers is a big no. The only canon about this space wolves role is that they were the only chapter with no worries about figthing brother marines. That wa in the 30K, even in the 40K they aro not the "space-marine killer" chapter, they are the Minotaurs.

MrFlopi said:

That does fly in the face of a number of hints dropped in the canon...but I accept a lot of my stuff is a matter of interpretation.

You say that differences in the Legions were caused by the character of the Primarchs...My point is that the Emperor engineered the character of the Primarchs, so any differences in the Legions were part of his plan.

And yes, the Empror wanted an enlightened humanity, but he still caused hundreds of billions of deaths and wiped out entire sentient species during the Great Crusade. Utopianism does not equate with benevolence; in fact history tells us repeatedly that the opposite is often true. In creating his "enlightened humanity" the Emperor was as content with the extermination of the "unenlightened" as any one of dozens of tyrants have been in humanity's history.

I personally believe that the Emperor was a completely ruthless utopian thinker who was completely prepared to use terror tactics if it advanced his agenda - the conquest of the galaxy. Bear in mind he also thinks on a grand scale with the benefit of some 38,000 years (at the time of the Horus Heresy) experience. He would be perfectly content to use terror troops in the short term to acheive a long term objective. And fior him, short term means centuries, long term means tens of millenia.

I agree that the Emperor engineered the Primarchs to conquer the galaxy...what I'm saying is that he had a specific role in mind for each Primarch's legion when the conquest was complete. I think he engineered the Primarchs to be the ultimate ruthless killers. And I mean the word "Ultimate" in its true sense - the last. He planned to use the Primarchs to conquer the galaxy and to use their descendants (the marines) to police it. - with specific post-crusade roles in mind for each Legion.

As for the Space Wolves being designed to be the Emperor's Executioners, what you say about their willingness to fight even brother marines is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not suggesting the Emperor anticipated his betrayal by Horus, I'm suggesting that he anticipated some potential future rebellion by a limited number of marines and as such engineered the Space Wolves to be ruthless enough to do any act, including kiling fellow marines. Having lived through enough of history, he would have been fully familiar with the concept of "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? " and planned accordingly. That's just logical.

As for the Minotaurs, they're nothing to do with this whole topic, to be honest. They're a Chapter, not a Legion, and as such part of Roboute Gulliman's crisis reorganisations rather than the Emperor's grand secret plan for the Imperium. They're from a later founding, and effectively act as enforcers for the High Lords, who presumably have a hold over them through knowledge of their suspect geneseed. The Minotaurs were never part of the Emperor's plan for anything.

Kirov said:

I have no idea! I suspect that GW (specifically Rick Priestly and Andy Chambers) deliberately left the two mystery founding legions as intriguing blanks in an effort to foster enjoyable speculation among fans. And its worked!

Perhaps one day GW will allow one of their "big gun" writers (Abnett, Rick Priestly, Alan Bligh) to do something with the concept, but personally, I like it left as a mystery.

In-setting, I have seen some nice fan speculation over the years. Some of the best relates to astrological/tarot stuff, suggesting that each Primarch fulfills an astrological/magickal aspect, and that from this one can make guesses as to the nature of the missing two primarchs:-

http://www.40konline.com/community/index.php?topic=158795.0

I like this stuff, it's clever and fun, though my gut feeling is that it's all a coincidence, and not necessarily intended by Messrs Chambers and Priestly. (Dan Abnett is devious enough to make passing references to this concept in his Horus Heresy novels, though.)

Another theory is that the figure we think of as the Emperor - the nine foot tall golden armoured guy with the bronze skin, long dark hair, lightning claw and power sword - was actually one of the two missing primarchs, and that the REAL Emperor is Malcador the Sigilite. After all, the Empror is supposed to have lived anonymously among humanity for thousands of years - tricky if you're nine feet tall.

As an alternative approach, if we're following the alternative "Each Primarch had a specific purpose" theory through to its logical conclusion, one way to analyse this would be to consider what roles are NOT covered by the existing Primarchs.

My immediate thoughts are a sort of "emergency Primarch," one designed to be kept "on ice" in a stasis chamber, with his Legion, to ensure humanity's survival in the event of an event which destroys the Imperium. This individual would be a bit like Alpharius, cunning, adaptive and secretive, but also capable of acting as a general. On the assumption one can't plan for the unplannable, he would have to be a bit of an "all rounder" Primarch, who would have heavy fleet assets, on the asumption that humanity may have to be fleeing from some great doom. A sort of "Fugitive Primarch," a Moses like figure leading humanity away from a burning galaxy and a shattered Terra to a new promised land.

Another thought is that one of the two could be the Emperor's successor - one to rule the Imperium in his stead. Perhaps the Emperor planned all along to acheive his ideal society then abdicate in favour of one who could rule it justly in his stead. After all, what's an immortal to do to pass the time when he has everything? Live unnoticed among his subjects, perhaps. This actually links in with the Primarch=the Emperor theory.

Great theories, Lightbringer. I particularly like your theory about the "roles" of each legion, I agree with many of your conclusions.

Would you not higher the changes for the Salamander geneseed? There are at least three suspected successors to the Salamanders. If you compare thiswith the Space Wolves, where there is only one failed successor known, I think that the Salamanders should have at least the same percentage as the Space Wolves.

Watch-Captain Albus said:

Thanks!

Which three suspected successors do you refer to? I'm a little rusty on my Salamanders lore! I know the Black Dragons are suspected to be Salamanders successors, but I didn't know about any more than them?

Lightbringer said:

I know of at least two "suspected" successors, the Storm Giants and the Black Dragons. The second founding was a very turbulent time. A lot of information from that era is incomplete or wrapped in legend an mystery. So it could be, that there were one or two Salamanders successors, but chances are slim. And many chapters of the later foundings do not know their progenitor chapter or the origins of their geneseed, so possibly there is one or two chapters from Salamanders origin amongst them too.

By the way, the unique Salamander mutations are possibly caused, not only by their geneseed, but also by the radiation levels of their homeworld Nocturne.

For what i've understand about the great scheme of the Emperor and his sons, each one of them was to be a major actor of his empire.

Magnus was to be bounded in the Astroniomicom, Horus was his successor for the everyday rule, Guilliman was to be General of the imperial force, Alpharius and his brother the ears in the shadow, Vulkan was to be the protector of mankind, Dorn was to be the pretorian and keeper of terra, Perturbaro was to be the architec of the empire defence (aka fortress world and font line), Russ was the executive arm of the empeor,Lorgar was to be the guide of the imperium philosophy herald of the emperor, Sanguinius was to be the face of the empirium, Ferrus was to be the link beetween mars and Terra, Fulgrim should have been the "diplomat", the Lion was to be the strategist of the Imperium, Corax, Mortarion, Konrad, Angrom,the Khan should have a role but still unknow to me.

I always thought the Storm Giants were White Scars successors...but I can't remember where I got this idea from!Lexicanum has them as a later founding, and I think that the Black Dragons are a 21st cursed founding chapter.

That said, it is heavily hinted that the Black Dragons are Salamanders successors. The problems they have with mutation might be a reason why Salamanders geneseed is rarely (if ever) used for later foundings.And yes, the salamanders radioactive homeworld could be causing constant activation of the melanochrome.

Lightbringer said:

Yes, there is indeed some discussion about the Storm Giants, I agree.

But I think it is sad that there is no love for the Salamanders. They could have some successors, even Vulkan accepted the Codex Astartes to reorganise his legion. And the Salamanders get a lot of love from the gamers (I have one gamer in my group who knew that he wanted to be a Salamander the second after I asked him to join our Deathwatch game). It is very different to the Space Wolves, a chapter that chose deliberately to have no successors after the Wolf brothers disaster. The Salamanders never made that choice and still their geneseed is rarely used...

In short, I think still that changes should be higher that a chapter's geneseed is of Salamanders origin (even if it is unknown to the chapter) than it is of Space Wolves origin. But as we are discussing a mere 0.3% here, I won't cry if you would not change it.

Watch-Captain Albus said:

Hey, I'm with you, I've got a small Salamanders army dating from the early '90s with the old non-spiky Legion Symbol! Plus the entire Salamanders chapter in Epic Scale!

I agree it seems odd that such a reliable and obviously respected chapter/Legion should have no successors. As I set out above, the only explanation I can think of is that they bear what appears to be a mutation (as you say that may actually be incorrect) and the Adeptus Terra is suspicious of mutation. I would cheerfully change the figures above to reflect a higher percentage of successors, but as I say, the official line seems to be that there are no known successors. The chapters named as potential successors (Black Dragons certainly, I'm a little uncertain about the Storm Giants) are ambiguous at best.

I was always under the assumption that the Salamanders' unique appearance owed itself to the melanochrome working-as-intended, to assist in protecting them from the high background radiation. Sort of a "suntan from hell" syndrome. Though, a lot of the newer material including the FFG mentions of the chapter specifically mention that its a mutation.

Regarding the lack of successors, I know for the earlier foundings that it would make sense to look at the near-annihilation of the chapter at the Massacre. For a very long time the Salamanders were sidelined while they recovered their numbers. I would go so far as to say that this massive rebuild depleted the "reserve" geneseed that the successor chapters were drawn from. It may be that the Salamanders have few, if any, successors due to the simple lack of surplus geneseed. Not to say that the chapter is at the edge of collapse, but I'd imagine that there would need to be a certain level of overstock before spawning a new chapter would even be considered. A wild guess on my part... they may even have a bit of an institutional paranoia about having enough geneseed hidden away to rebuild if something like the Massacre ever happened again. This could easily translate into an unwillingness to part with any more than the Mechanicus tithing requires.