Hello there

Some quick questions regarding "knelt characters cannot be killed" effects and VM.

If there is an effect prohibiting knelt characters from being killed (Stoic Resolve, Timett etc) , do I get the "time" to kneel them=> "save" them as valar morgulis is played?

is it like that?

i) Plot Phase- Opponent plays VM

ii) kneel my characters through card effects (killed the wrong dwarf, obey the king etc etc etc)

iii) characters "survive" the VM bomb

iv) proceed to marshalling phase (with knelt characters)

if *I* decide to play it, (and I have down Timett with clansmen or someone else plays stoic resolve) does it go like that?

i) plot phase- I reveal VM

ii) kneel my characters via card effects and "survive"

iii) proceed to marshalling phase (with knelt characters

or should I kneel my characters during the standing phase already in order to pull it off?

cheers

I believe you CAN make a character "not be killed" while he is moribund, effectively rescuing him.

However, it would have to be done through a response (not a player action), as moribund characters would leave the board in step 6 of the framework action.

In other words, what happens is

Plot phase begins
Player actions (You could play a "killed the wrong dwarf" here, but wouldn't know your opponent is triggering a valar)
FRAMEWORK ACTIONS (BOLD)
1. choose and reveal plots
2. initiative is counted
3. High initiative player appoints “First Player”
4. "when revealed" plot effects resolve (in order determined by First Player)
Now unless you have a save/cancel response, or a response triggered off one of these 4 framework events (or a passive/response that triggers of a passive/response that triggered off one of these 4, and so on), your characters will die before you get to the next step, which is
Player Actions (You could play a "killed the wrong dwarf" here, but your characters are already gone)


So neither of your scenarios works. However, you CAN kneel clannsmen in the first player action window (as mentioned), knowing you will play a valar (or in anticipation of your opponent playing one). However, that should be a dead giveaway for your opponent that you have a valar coming...

-Istaril said:

No. Think about it... when does a character become moribund? When he is successfully killed or otherwise removed from play.

The only way to make use of a constant effect that makes knelt characters "cannot be killed" in response to a plot being revealed is if you have a save/cancel response that kneels a character in step 2 (or rather: in any of the 'step 2's) of that framework action window. As soon as the "when revealed" effect of Valar successfully resolves in its step 3 all characters not saved become moribund. Making them "cannot be killed" now is pointless as they already have been killed.

As Istaril points out, if you suspect a Valar Morghulis coming (or want to play your own) and have any standard player actions to kneel your characters, you are free to do so in the player action window before plots are revealed.

Also, a lot of what Istaril and I talk about in terms of timing structure is probably unknown to you. Check the official FAQ document (link in my signature); it contains a detailed breakdown of the timing structure of the game.

so, summing it up (correct me if I am wrong) :

I CAN kneel my clansmen (through "any phase" stuff, like the painted dogs' ability, "mountain tactics" and the "tyrion's thug" thingy) but only *before* the VM hits.

Hence, I can only do that either "aggressively" (playing my own VM) or in *anticipation* of an opponent's VM.

much better than nothing, I suppose

-Istaril said:

There are some possibilities with other "when revealed" plots, like Drunken Allegations, but that's all going to depend on what the First Player wants to do.

Saturnine said:

Making it clear: does this include the painted dogs' ability, "mountain tactics" and the "tyrion's thug" thingy? Can I use these cards as I described before- after plots are chose, but before plots are revealed- yes or no?

No. You may freely use all of those abilities before plots are chosen. Only after all players at the table pass on actions are plots chosen and then revealed. As long as the action window is open plots do not have to be decided on yet and it is highly likely any opponent watching you kneel characters is going to decide that maybe they should consider playing a different plot.

At most games most of the time people generally don't trigger abilities in the plot phase before plots are thrown but it is important to remember that window is there and that plot choices are not finalized until after all pre-plot any phase or plot actions are resolved. Once plots are flipped and shown no any phase or plot effects can be triggered until all plots fully resolve.

So, practically speaking, I can only do that "aggressively" (before plots) if I am planning to play VM myself. (Unless of course I guess that someone is gonna do that and proceed with these actions- and he insists on choosing VM).

Point taken, thank you.

Freerider said:

I can think of several effects that you might want to activate pre-plot: Bran for a when revealed plot effect and still get better gold, init and/or claim with the normal plot; King's Landing to draw; and chain effects.

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the new Tyrion in the upcoming LotR expansion. He pretty much allows for what the OP is trying to do, once you have the right pieces.

FATMOUSE said:

Some people on French boards claim that Valar will affect the characters from step 4)I) and that therefore the "Cannot be killed" will not be checked versus the kill effect during step 4)III), so the knelt character would die even with Stoic Resolve revealed.

In my opinion nothing in the rules says that a constant effect such as "Cannot be killed" is not applicable/checked during Step 4)III).

I think there have been some kind of confusion between definition of target legality Step 1) or 4)I) , legality of the effect itself and previous example of cards bypassing immunities to kill characters.

Bolzano said:

The effect is initiated in Step 1 (or Step 4.I, depending on the type of effect). It is not resolved until Step 3 (or Step 4.III). So with Valar, the kill does not ever happen until the effect resolves in Step 4.III. If Valar affected characters and the kill was applied in Step 4.I, it would be too late to save them in 4.II! There is no point to being able to interrupt an effect in Step 4.II if the results are applied completely in Step 4.I.

Here's another example that pretty much proves constant effects are applied when something happens in the "save/cancel" step before getting to the resolution of the original effect. STR 1 Greyjoy character is hit with Flame-Kissed. Risen from the Sea is played to save it and attach as a +1 STR attachment. Not only is the +1 STR applied immediately (it would not be under the "'cannot be killed' will not be checked vs. the kill effect during Step 4.III" reasoning), but the presence of the other attachment shuts off the -2 STR from Flame-Kissed. All of which has to be true in order to play Risen in the first place, right?

Another way to look at it is this: save/cancel Responses act the same as any other Response - except that they are played in Step 2 to interrupt the initiation/resolution of an effect (Steps 1 & 3). We know that cancels themselves can be canceled. That means, there is a "Step 2.I - Step 2.IV" framework to resolving the save/cancel Response, just like the "Step 5.I - Step 5.IV" framework to resolving the standard Response as illustrated in the "basic action window timing" charts on p. 18 of the FAQ. So if the folks on the French boards need a place where "cannot be killed" from something like Stoic Resolve is applied before the resolution of Valar, it is Step 2.IV, where all effects and changes to the board based on what happened when a save Response was played should be expected to take place.

Bolzano said:

Thanks for the clarification.

How do you think Bronn's capacity would fit in this timing? In other words, does Bronn die if he is kneeling and stand instead of the killing of a character?

The way I see it, Bronn capacity is a replacement effect that resolves in 4)III). So Bronn would not die because all the killing from Valar happen at the same time when Bronn is still kneeling

Bolzano said:

Correct. Bronn's ability creates a replacement effect. You can tell by the use of the word "instead." So for the character in question (usually Bronn himself), Bronn's effect transforms it and it is Valar's killing effect that resolves - in Step 4.III - by standing that Bronn "instead" of killing that character.

The thing to remember is that Bronn's effect has long since resolved, creating the replacement effect. The replacement effect applies to the original effect at the point of it's resolution - as all replacement effect do. (You know that the replacement effect applies at the point of resolution - not initiation - because you are still free to save character chosen with Bronn's ability in Step 4.II, indicating that the character is still in danger of being killed at that point, as opposed to Bronn being in "danger" of standing.)