Here's a question that came up in a game last night. If my opponent is playing Lannister and has 2 or 3 Golden Tooth Mines out and I kneel my Informed Acolyte to copy the draw effect, do I get the multiple card draw? My understanding is yes. Since the draws are not responses triggering their own action window. My opponent draws multiple cards in step 4 as a passive. Informed Acolyte is a response activated in step 5 of the same action window. I also realize I could be wrong, so I want to get verification if my reasoning is correct or not.

Thanks

HoyaLawya said:

Not quite. Your opponent draws multiple cards separately as a result of multiple passive effects (one for each copy of GTM). You only get to copy one of them.

More to the point, you need to kneel the Acolyte once for each effect. Each GTM is a separate effect that draws 1 card. So if your opponent has 3 separate GTMs and you can find a way to kneel the Acolyte 3 separate times (once for each GTM), you can get a total of 3 cards, too.

The important thing here is that each GTM is a separate effect letting you draw 1 card each, even though they are passive. They do not combine into a single effect that lets you draw 2-3 cards.

Acolyte text is :

Response: After an opponent draws 1 or more cards outside the draw phase, kneel Informed Acolyte to draw that many cards.

So he does not copy the draw effect - he just makes you draw as many cards.

The first GTM provides an opportunity to trigger the Acolyte Response. The 2nd GTM provides a 2nd opportunity. But in the meantime, it also bring the number of cards "drawn outside the draw phase" from 1 to 2. And the number "that many cards" is calculated at the Response initiation, not when the opportunity is opened.

So that would make sense that kneeling the Acolite allows drawing 2 cards. And that the player gets a 2nd opportunity to draw another two cards (according to his draw cap).

In other words, my point is that, if the acolyte text was:

Response: After an opponent draws 1 or more cards outside the draw phase BY A CARD EFFECT, kneel Informed Acolyte to draw that many cards.

then I would completly agree with answers given above. But it's not really clear that only a single effect is considered here when calculating how much is "that many cards"

So, Stark player wins a MIL challenge as attacker in which a character dies for Deadly. He uses The Blackfish, Ghost of Winterfell, and finally Whispers from the Hill in Response during the same challenge. At that point, it's OK for Informed Acolyte to be triggered in Response to any one of those 3 separate Responses and draw a total of 3 cards, as opposed to the 1 card related to the actual Response opportunity.

I see what you're saying about the "look at the play restrictions when the Response is triggered, not at the play restrictions as the existed when the response opportunity was created." However, I would argue that each response opportunity is related to the individual card drawn, not to the total number of cards drawn in that window. The "after an opponent 1 or more cards outside the draw phase" does not allow you to pool opportunities.

Look at it another way. Say that instead of using 3 Responses to the same challenge, a Baraheon player wins dominance and triggers three separate copies of Watcher of the Nightfire. You trigger Informed Acolyte as a Response to the use of the 3rd. So, are you triggering the effect after the opponent drew 1 card (the specific effect) or 3 cards (the total number drawn outside the draw phase)? Do you get to draw 1 or 3 cards? Or how about if you drew 1 cards with GTM in the plot phase and 2 cards with Insidious Ways in the challenge phase, could I use the Acolyte in Response to Insidious Ways to draw 3 cards, the total number of card that you drew outside of the draw phase?

Since there is no phase or round limitation on the Acolyte, the reasoning you are using for pooling the cards draw with passives/responses in the same window should also apply to pooling the cards drawn with all player actions, no matter when they are triggered. The only reason they would not is if you can only draw the number of cards associated with the effect that created the individual response opportunity, "by a card effect" text or not. If so, that should apply to passives/responses the same as individual player actions.

Yeah, I knew what would be the answer in the end, but I couldn't figure out why the limitation applies within the action window - and the reason is that it wouldn't make sense outside this window.

Thanks again!