Reading Ravenor, I find several of the characters to be anything but antiheroes. Nayl, Maud Plyton, Belknap, Kara, even Ravenor are anything but 'nazis' either. Why make it more complicated than it is, I don't know.

I find it a meaningless, bait-minded dicussion of the kind that I had hoped I wouldn't find here. I am glad it is easy to avoid stuff like this, at least.

I guess the whole Torqemada/*Inquisition things stands out so much, that the 'Nazi' concept has never even entered my head before reading this (?flame?) post.

You also have to give that all the Fate Point rewards are based on doing the 'humanitarian' thing, rather than being a good imperial citizen. I think the moral rudder of the game is pointed more towards the sunrise than the sunset.

I guess it could be taken to extremes, but so too can anything else... "no soup for you!"... being a poignant example.

*Spanish-

wolfie said:

True but Eisenhorn definatly was an anti-hero by the end of the story. Creating Demonspawn, blowing up entire bars with perscribed magic, killing off friends, desecrating friends dead bodies. Argueably by the end, the difference between Eisenhorn and Pontius was that Eisenhorn was on the side of the Emporer. I'd call Eisenhorn a anti-hero at the end. I'd argue that Cain was an anti-hero as well.

As to your second point, the good thing about this community here is that we're all, from what I can see, pretty rational folks, who don't rise to any bait, but can turn a topic like this into a mostly rational discussion, which can be rather informative.

I think you've hit the nail on the Head Attila-IV, roleplaying in the Imperium allows you to play truely aweful people as heros, and there is something cathartic in that.

That being said, you could easily place nazi germany into Calixis, and ' 40k-ify' some of the names (jews become mutants, etc) and it would not be out of place. The Imperium is a aweful place, there is simply no escaping it. But as Attila-IV says, thats why you play it.

Personally, I find it facinating how much everyone is willing to excuse the Imperium of its 'crimes against humanity' because it has 'sufficent cause'. "Genocide is ok, because the other options are so much worse!" has been by rallying cry of war-criminals for a thousand years.

Agmar_Strick said:

I think you're quite correct historically, but concidering that the other option in 40k is literally the end of the universe, well I think they may be one to something. I may be more willing to excuse the actions of the Imperium based on the fact that yes really the end of the universe would occur if we didn't take such drastic actions. The true question is not am I willing to excuse the Imperium for so many of its crime against morality, but do such crimes against morality HAVE to occur, or is there another way to reach the same goal that doesn't incure crimes against humanity? And if so are my characters "moral" enough to go against so much of the Imperium and take the path less travelled (and quite often suicidal).

The true beauty in Dark Heresy is seeing how far you're willing to take your characters in the name of said survival. Like many Games of Personal Horror, the true Horror lies in self-examination and wondering exactly why you were so willing to destroy the hover-bus of nuns and orphans to kill the one Heretic inside of it.

Did you Inquisitor order you to do it? If yes, why didn't you say you wouldn't do it, or search for other options? If No, why was that you're choice of action? What are the consequenses of your actions, and are you willing to face them, in light of the 40k universe. Would you have done the same thing in the real world, if a similiar option had presented itself.

Mark It Zero said:

Have you seen "Troops"? It is a very funny, fan-made project that takes the "Cops" show and puts it on Tatooine
It's great! And its on youtube :

Bad boys, Bad Boys...... :

Darth Smeg said:

I have and it is rather funny.

Ever played Rifts? The Coalition States are based off of Nazi Germany, only they are pro human (non magic using and "sanctioned" psi)and anti anthing els. Their world is a very dangerous place and the extremes they go to are (thou not entirly necessary) effective. The same can be said for the agent of Him on Tera.

As for the crimes against humanity, what about other species? Xenophobia is no better than Racism.

Xathess Wolfe said:

Which of course requires that the _player_ as opposed to the _character_ knows the "End of the Universe" story is _true_, which is a bit of a failure on the part of the GM, but hard to rectify as GW tends to promote that specific view to keep the GrimDark vibe. Try telling your players that "No, of course Mankind won't end if the Imperium falls. That's just Imperium propaganda." and see how long it takes for them to start feeling uncomfortable torturing information out of 5-year old "heretics".

It could also be noted that the whole "the end justifies the means"-view will give birth to the other type of "Fallen Inquisitors". Not those who slowly slide over to Chaos-worshipping or Xenophilia but those who look at it all and decide Humanity simply isn't worth saving. Period. Now "all" they want to do is get out of the whole Inquisition-mess alive and find some quiet corner to live out the rest of their life. Not that _that_ will stop the rest of the organisation sending as many KillTeams after them as after their Slaanesh-hugging colleagues.

There were similar discussions on both the Delta Green mailing list and the CthulhuTech forums regarding PCs doing "whatever necessary" to keep mankind safe where someone noted that he wasn't sure he would go to the extreme lengths fighting the aliens and the Cults that some other posters suggested because he didn't see humanity (as a species) as more deserving to survive than their opponents. Especially if they started brutally purging suspected collaborators or proclaiming to have some sort of special "destiny" excluding all non-believers.

It's a question of complexity, rather than simple, stark, morality. DH takes place in a fantasy setting where free thought and intelligence really are deadly dangerous, and blind faith genuinely is a virtue of sorts. I think it's definitely true that players will take a certain amount of satisfaction in being an absolute authority, in being heavy-handed, and dictatorial, and taking extreme measures to combat an extreme foe. That's the game world, that's part fo what makes it complex and interesting. It's like asking Vampire: The Masquerade players if part of the appeal is being a leech, or a serial killer.most rolleplay games that aren't about conquest and battle and loot tend not to have such a clearly defined and obvious good/evil dichotomy.

I've always thought the Imperium of Man went too far.

1. Wouldn't man be more successful with Allies?

2. Why is there a rift between the Eldar and Man? They both fight demons don't they?

I mean, you could site the Dark Eldar as corrupting man's thoughts about how Eldar really are, but humans have Chaos worshippers in their ranks too.

The Tau are obviously a different case since they expect all other alien species to bow to them. This outlook would put off most other species. "You want me to bow to your greatness? I don't think so."

The xenophobia is justified on some fronts, but Eldar and Men should be allies in their battles. I've had issues with it since the 3rd editon of 40k when I started playing.

Anyway, the Imperium of Man is fascist. I don't think this can be denied. They felt their race was on the brink of destruction from both forces without and forces within. The powers that be took control and trained people to be subservient to their laws. Do those in charge follow their own laws? In most cases, yes, but they don't constrain themselves to follow the laws when they feel they need to break them. For a huge example of the Imperium's hypocrasy, look no further than their prime defenders, the Space Marines. These warriors can scaresly be considered human with the modifications they go through in adolescence and yet they are the posterboys for Mankind.

I think the intention of 40k was always to explore how far mankind would go to keep themselves from extinction.

In my opinion, this conflict within both the race of man and within ourselves is what makes this game fun.

You could point to many groups that 40k universe parallels, but I think it's really pulled from the darkest moments of humanity in all of our history.

This game really is about how your character chooses to act during this dark time.

That's part of what makes DH fun to play.

LeBlanc13 said:

And? The Enemy of my Enemy is just another Enemy, as the saying goes.

Remember that the Horus Heresy is essentially the earliest conflict in Imperial History that included the Forces of Chaos actively. The Imperium set out during the Great Crusades to reunite humanity, conquer planets and kill aliens.

Just because they're both enemies of Chaos does not mean that the Eldar are happy little Space Elves who fly around the galaxy helping humanity. They're selfish,callous, ruthless beings as willing to see another species slaughtered if it serves their purposes. They're capricious, passionate, dangerous creatures as inclined towards sadism and merciless violence as they are to honour and peace.

The Eldar are not nice people.

LeBlanc13 said:

The Eldar dislike humanity as much as humanity dislikes them. It isn't just the Imperium who're xenophobic. Humans are, by Eldar standards: ugly, clumsy, unintelligent creatures with pitifully brief lifespans and a propensity to breed all over any planet they find. They're ignorant, easily-corrupted, easily-deceived and only barely more than wild animals.

The Second War for Armageddon? The Eldar caused it, because if they hadn't acted to divert that onrushing WAAAGH, Eldar lives would have been at stake... instead, billions of humans have died as a result of WAAAGH Ghazghkull.

And that pretty much sums up the archetypal Eldar mindset - equal amounts of "I'm so much better than you that you might as well be vermin" and "better that you suffer and die than I do".

Eldar-human alliances do happen... rarely, and only for short periods of time, but they do happen. But the Eldar and the Imperium really don't get on for a whole host of reasons.

On another note, I do find the Imperium (well the military anyways) to be more akin to Soviet Russia. Political officers, troops being used as cannon fodder, really ignorant genrerals/marshalls just watching the battlefield updates far away from the front and not 'getting it'. Shooting each other while they are fighting...

Not that's it's all bad, as the organisation always fascinates me. But there is a stark contrast vs Nazi-era Germany and Soviet-era Russia that is probably really melded together greatly in the Imperium of Man. So there's probably more then jack-boots here eh?

SJE said:

How is it any different than a paladin or cleric in virtually any other game system? Paladins are notorious for such behavior which is nice as it turns them into walking plot hooks for the GM.

The difference in DH is that every character is somewhat of a religious zealot as a member of the Inquisition.

SJE said:

Ever played Nephilim? One of the basic tenets of the game is that human life doesn't matter as people are merely cattle or literally beasts of burden as hosts. Think Goa'uld but elemental spirits and those are the PC's.

SJE said:

What RPG doesn't allow it? The vast majority of characters have a healthy dose of sociopathy with a dash of a God complex.

Fair enough.

Eldar then equate to the popular kids in high schools. They are self-important and the minority of the population.

Humans on the other hand are every other kid in the school. We're a dime a dozen and don't care for the popular kids.

It's been decades since my high school days but this is bringing it back for me.

Can't we all just get along? Apparently not, which is why the galaxy is so screwed up in the 40k universe.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

So, what you're saying is, essentially:

Humans are to Eldar what Orks are to Humans? ;-)

On the original topic, I don't think this game or setting is any more appealing to actual neo-nazis then any other rpg. The Imperium, for all it's hatred and fascist like appearance does not really embody the tenets and ideals that the nazi party preached. Heck, hard liners would probably have extreme difficulty playing characters who worshiped some guy from the middle east. The connections between the Imperium and honest to goodness nazis is strictly superficial.

As someone else pointed out, the Imperium is so much more then just fascist. It is every bad aspect of every society that we have ever birthed in our relative short time on this earth. It is everything that is wrong with humanity rolled into one big dysfunctional package.

The main reason why most folks love the setting so much isn't due to political alliances or philosophical ideals, but more because of it's strong flavor of the sublime. The universe and the Imperium has an aesthetic that a part of us finds intriguing and pleasing that, in reality, we should actually abhor and find absolutely repulsive. It's like a car wreck that we see and just know resulted in terrible fatalities yet we find our selves really wanting to see more, to see how bad it really was and then thinking about it for some time to come. We are intrigued by distopias such as the Imperium for the same reason we are intrigued by serial killers and the same reason the History Channel loves biographies and stories about Hitler. It's not that we wish to live in such a society nor that we are drawn to it due to similar ideologies. Perhaps, like the serial killer, it is at once seemingly familiar and knowable on the surface yet completely alien and incomprehensible underneath.

We think we know it, we think it's familiar. After all, it looks like us, walks like us, talks like us, yet, underneath, it does things that we could and would never possibly do. We might understand it's actions and motivations in a strictly clinical sense but we can't fully and internally comprehend those actions and motivations. For most all of us, they are simply beyond our experience. This inability to fully and internally comprehend could be what the draw to the sublime is and, ultimately, the draw to such fictional distopias that mirror our own worst moments.

It's easy and natural seeming to be attracted by the good points of something, but in order to fully understand that something, one must also comprehend it's worst aspects as well. When looking to understand the totality of humanity and our selves we have to not only comprehend what we see as the good and noble aspects as well as the worst and most despicable aspects as well.

Don't forget that Inquisitors tend to pick individuals that stand out from the crowd. They usually pick people to work for them that don't generally fit the Imperial mold set out for it's citizens. If the inquisitor didn't pick people that would buck authority and take initiative, then they'd never get any investigations off the ground.

They have to select people who challenge the status quo in order to get anything done.

So in a way, while the majority of the Imperium is dysfunctional and living in a delusional world where everyone must be happy and worship the Emperor, Acolytes have to go against the grain to do their jobs properly.

It gives players a way to be individuals in an oppressive society.

Inquisitors have the freedom to act against a conformative nature and need to recognize that ability in their Acolytes in order to get the job done. By doing this, it allows everyone else in society to be oblivious to what's really going around them.

Anyway, my point is, while the society is generally Fascist, the PC's have the freedom to avoid that system in the roles they are performing.