As mentioned numerous times on this forum, there can be (and more often then not will be) a problem when a RT group increases its profit factor. If players don't do anything out of the ordinary the rules pretty much work well enough as written. However as soon as players get more then a single vessel (a problem/situation that isn't currently addressed in the rules but which I allow) or get a rather imbalanced vessel with multiple cargo holds, the rules pretty much make the players richer then the Emperor in just a few sessions. Especially when they go full on munchkin and decide to have a Universe-class Mass Conveyor as a secondary ship stuffed full of main cargo holds (and if you have one, why not have two!). A munchkined Universe-class can have 18(!) main cargo holds giving a whopping +2250 achievement points in any endeavor involving trade for an extra twenty two and a half Profit Factor for even the simplest endeavor.

Now in practice it probably won't be this bad. But my players probably will want to start having additional cargo vessels in their trade fleet to increase their profit. Which is not munchkinly at all, but rather just good business sense (as expected of any rogue trader). I know that there are some house rules floating around there which I personally find a little cumbersome and involving too much book keeping. So I tried to think of some simplified house rules of my own. Which brings me to the actual point of this post; My house rule for Temporary Profit Factor:

1. Only the real/original endeavor will add to the permanent Profit Factor (i.e. the normal Profit Factor as written in the rules)
2. Any achievement points gained in excess of the target required by the endeavor is turned into temporary profit factor at a rate of 1 TPF per 10 additional achievement points.
3. Each point of TPF used in acquisition adds +1 to the acquisition roll, to a maximum of +60.
4. TPF can only be spend once. If it is used to increase an acquisition roll the TPF is lost.
5. Just like PF the TPF is used by all players. There is one pool of TPF that is decreased every time any player uses it. The rogue trader has the last say in who gets to use what part of the TPF (but a cunning Seneschal will of course find a way to circumvent this ).

So what this rule basically does is force any excess profit factor in an endeavor to be burnt in acquisition rolls. It symbolizes the temporary nature of having a one time cash injection instead of having an endeavor that gives a permanent cash flow. Selling a ship for example can also add to the TPF instead of the PF. This forces the players into thinking up endeavors if they want to increase their permanent PF (e.g. setting up a ship on a trade route will add to PF, but simply selling it will add to TPF).

The rule is not the start all and end all of Profit Factor rules, but it is a nice simple rule that doesn't really hamper the players but forces them to think more creatively in their endeavors. Before I start using it though I would like your feedback on it. Is it good or bad, am I missing any obvious pitfalls, etc.? Any input is appreciated!

I've run into a similar problem with the Universe and unknown to my players, I no longer count the ENTIRE bonus for their cargo holds, instead only giving them a bonus for what they actually use. AKA, if they do some trading a planet that does not involve their vessel at all, no extra achievement points. I also set most trade keywords to the minimum AP reward to reduce their take a bit.

Another thing you can do is remove PF at the outlay of an endevour, representing PF burnt to get it going. This involves planning a bit of a bigger scenario than might otherwise be called for, but can be useful to keep the reigns in. I also charge 1/10th SP cost for ships acquired, representing the rather large outlay that any vessel represents. If they keep buying Universes, well they'd better keep using them or they'll be broke in no time.

Another method is to hit them with upkeep tests at times where they can handle it, but it's inconvenient. This is great if they have a ship that actually surpasses their PF in SP as they'll likely have to burn PF to keep everything running. My group is up in the 80s right now, and I'm not really to worried about it myself.

I do like your methods though. They make sense within the game as well as a set of rules.

The PF cost for ships is an idea I also fully embrace, although I make it 1/20th the SP instead of 1/10th the SP you suggest. And it only counts for ships in the trade fleet. So any ship they send out to be part of an endeavor is part of the operating cost of that endeavor. If they should loose their current ship though, they can always reclaim such a ship as their own of course.

Not counting the entire achievement bonus wouldn't really work in my group. It has just enough rules lawyers in it to notice if I tried to pull something like that

Red Bart said:

Well if they take pains to fill the entire thing up, then yeah, they've got a good argument. Like trading macrocannons from Zayth to the Calaxis Sector. But, for instance (using another ItS location) the water trade with Vaporous. The amount granted doesn't even come close to filling a single cargo hold, so giving them even that amount would be a nice gesture.

At least that's the argument that I'll be using with my group when they find out. ;-)

I'd solve the problem with this phrase "An empty cargo hold makes no money". Take one of those Universe Mass Conveyors, kitted out to the max with cargo holds. How likely are they (in the span of a mission) to fill up every hold? I'd rule that they only get the bonus APs for the Holds they used. How do you know how many were used? Probably derived from the APs generated for the Endeavor in the first place. Like every 500 or so is one Hold. Then, to represent the expense, every empty hold is lost profit. It should cost something to have those kept empty, how much? Maybe a percentage of the APs for every Hold that's empty (or a fraction of the actual PF). Basically a Mass Conveyor is an expensive ship, and after only a few missions with mostly empty cargo holds they likely should decide to drop it. Just like in real life. You can't afford to have tractor trailers moving with empty or half empty trailers.

Having said that, obviously there is a need for such ships, otherwise they wouldn't have been made. But a ship like that is most likely on a dedicated and profitable route that they'll slowly and endlessly follow for generations down the line. That's where the profit lies. For Rogue Traders, that's likely not fast enough or exciting enough. They should only want the ship for the very rare big score, like literally raiding a planet's GPP (Gross Planetary Product). Other than that, the expense of operating it should be too much, a smaller ship like a Frigate or regular Transport should better balance the cost to profit ratio.

Those optional rules initially presented look good and I think could definitely help.

Haven't run into this particular probelm, but as a general D&D fix: if your players can do it, NPCS can too.

Before they close on these deals, they are attacked by a rival rogue trader. This rogue trader has huge, cargo-laden ships - and the warship escorts to match - and stands to be on the brink of bankruptcy if the PCs start stealing trade from him as they inevitably intend to do. You don't increase profit factor in this universe without taking it away from someone else.

Short story: One of their ships gets stolen, sabotaged, or just blown the hell up by archeotech weapons. They spend the next few sessions recouping losses and getting revenge. (The Imperial Navy would like to help the PCs, since they're on the right side of the law, but can't, since they've likely retreated beyond imperial space).

...and just after they make they next big acquisition, Orks show up.

Basically, they can't acquire anything faster than the DM allows, given a reasonable explanation. Most game-breaking strategies - as in real life - only work if you're the only one doing them. If you're offering something no one else can, you can make a fortune. Once people see the money you're making, they're likely to copy your methods.

Also, qcipher is totally right about the empty holds. Visiting an agrarian world, you might be able to fill them up, but most worlds just don't have that much stuff for sale - with a trading partner that will make you a profit on the sale. If other traders are running that same route, profit starts to fall to zero.

According to logic and the "gaming reality" acquiring or buying a starship of any class (except stealing/salveging one) is like wanting to get a Unique Eldar weapon on newly created colony with population of 100,000(lot but in comparasion to ForgeW, HiveW, ImperialW it is nothing). So from my point of view buying a new ship should cost the eqivalent of basic model Ship Points to spending equal Profit Factor points. Upkeep test won't do much unless they will have the really bad (over 60) effects. How many Ships and Unique-Xeno-Archeo gizmos your party has anyway? If lot they can become prey for Pirates (loot & booty), Orks (1, 2, many, much many ships -> atack fer good fightin), Xenos want to get back their artifacts, Adeptus Mechanicus Exploraory fleet demands returnig of archeotech. Reach to the PC's personal history and seek enemies that will strike at them and their possesions in least appropirate time. Achivment Points should become a merit of succes for the endeavours not the merit of Profit Factor. I make scalling of the Endeavours:

1000-2500AP and depending on them taking out the tasks of the quest granted is the Profit Facor 1-5, even more and sometimes something unique like Meltagun with omniscope or BEST craft Bionic or Power Weapon from defeated enemy's

Besides as GM you should decide where and at which settelments can they find wanted item. Now you can say that Footfall, Port Wander or other ForgeW, or Imperial Station can have it. HaaHaa. but they will spend there 1-4 weeks looking for desired item in vain, simply say no one in viscinity has it or the merchants don't like your Rouge Trader and are not willingly to sell items to them (impose -5 to -30 acqusition penalty test) because they have enemy talent, or have bad rumors that they kill with bought weapons those who sold them, or that there is no military surplus on desired items but deficiency.

Multiple cargo holds, okay but each compartment gives only bonus once, rules do not state that the bonuses are multiple (Additional facilities can be taken only once - in my opinoin that can be taken as logic aproach), just because someone decided to change a Starship into shopping cart does not mean it will work the same way. And besides Mass-Conveyor . How the hell any Rouge Trader get a hold, and what's more important wanted, that ship it's not designed as a "civil possesion" most of them are in Ecclesiarchy or Imperial Hands that have a good grip on them.

About your house rules, their are goodly thought but that dose not change the fact that they are still rich as hell especialy if they have Senschal(accountant) that has knack for such cases that can do all the thinking to outsmart the GM (don't ever give them that satisfaction "We never yield"). You can use them but to put it simply an devestating encounter may happen always (the neskt warp travel will end up by fighting Orks from a Rok in warp either they abbondon one of their ship as pray to orks or fight with them risking exposing all of their fleet to malfunctiong geller fields. Yes it is extreme measure, but you can just simply imply the game got harder you are on new difficulty level, now fight for your lives or die.