I guess i'm a tech heretic then! Hehe...

Well your stance on sources makes sense i suppose N0-1_H3r3, but its not one i support. For me all canon is to be accounted for and i see no reason to discard it or make a subjective decision about what applies and what doesn't.

From my perspective, its more interesting to try and make sense of it.

However, that said, how does the idea expressed in the 7th Universal Law it with the assertion that invention/creation is a sin?

'The Seventh Universal Law – Comprehension is the Key to all Things: Comprehension of the forces of the universe brings with it the keys to reality, the ability to affect any change or creation desired .' (My emphasis).

This seems to me to enshrine in the basic articles of the faith of the AdMech that the goal of the quest for knowledge is the ability to invent and create new things. How then can invention be seen as a sin?

Luddite said:

Comprehension is the key word in the 7th law. Comprehension, understanding, brings a greater level of sentience and brings you closer to the Omnissiah.

To me this reads as the search for knowledge and understanding, not invention.

13th Law: The knowledge of the ancients stands beyond question.

If what you are inventing was not first made by the ancients then what you are doing is tech-heresy. A more hardline approach would be that if the ancients didn't make it first there is no need for it.

I don't think you can isolate single word in the text as 'the important one'.

The knowledge of the ancients gave them the comprehension to invent and create.

They, after all, created the STCs.

Since the AdMech are engaged in the quest of knowledge, to uncover the lost knowledge, to achieve comprehension, to restore the lost abilities of comprehension and creation, how then can creation/invention be a sin?

How is achieving the lost knowledge of the ancients (the ability to create anew) contavening the 13th Law?

Luddite said:

Look to the eighth universal law, which says that the Omnissiah knows all and comprehends all (Omnissiah used here possibly as reference to the Machine God - sources vary as to whether the Omnissiah is the Machine God, a manifestation/avatar of the Machine God in human form, or simply a figure worthy of veneration through possession of knowledge exceeded only by the Machine God.. or all three. My personal choice is that different sects and orders believe different things about the nature of the Machine God/Omnissiah).

The Machine God is and embodies absolute comprehension and absolute knowledge, and with it the unmatched ability to create and influence. No creature of flesh can match this, for the flesh is weak, limited and fallible (15th universal law), and thus even the greatest of human minds cannot comprehend all things, and with that comes a more limited ability to create and influence. To claim otherwise is to presume that you are equal in understanding to the Machine God.

By that train of thought, invention can literally be construed as "playing god" - an act of blasphemy, in essence. On a similar note, comprehending the technical capabilities of the ancients (though with greater caution for abhorrent technology such as AI) can be construed as aspiring to understand knowledge that already exists and is already understood by the Machine God - you aren't creating something new, but rather recreating something ancient, under the divine guidance of the Machine God and the reverent caution learned from the mistakes of those who tried and failed before.

Of course, it's far from clear-cut in any sense. I imagine the debate we're having here, albeit presented in different ways and with more reliance on religious dogma as opposed to referencing wargame rulebooks, is little different to theological debates that have raged in secret amongst the Martian Priesthood since the foundation of their faith. The line between inventing something and recreating it is a narrow, almost imperceptible one, the precise placement of which varies depending on who you ask...

I agree, this debate probably replicates the kinds of debates the AdMech would have over interpretation and doctrine.

Interesting.

OK, so you're saying that comprehension cannot ever achieve true invention since to do so would be 'playing god'. So, surely the lost technologies like STCs are blasphemous, since they were made by the fallible 'flesh' ancients who presumed to 'play god/Omnissiah'?

If so, whay are STCs not considered blasphemous? Aren't they embodiments of the blasphemy of new creation?

I remain to be convinced that invention is a sin.

I see it as the ultimate goal of the Quest for Knowldge - to translate that knowledge into understanding and then to the capacity for invention/creation.

Far from being sinful, creation is the ultimate 'enlightenment'.

Which raises the interesting question of creation without comprehension...that is definately tech-heresy.

So, the Adeptus Mechanicus does believe that invention is a sin. Invention implies that one can build without the Omnissiah. Remember, ALL technology in the Imperium has a fragment of the Omnissiah which is why there are so many rituals. The only technology that is different that is to be embraced is that of the STC. Remember if one can invent who knows from where the idea has actually come from. It might even use the Warp as a source which is the worse kind of tech-heresy. Innovation on the other hand is just working on and checking said technology. That is the reason the Land Raider Crusader wasn't condemed, they looked at the patterns of Land Raiders and deduced that it would be the next pattern.

The Admech is one of those organizations that if you work on something, you had better have a good reason to even be changing said technology because it is divine in its own right. On taking into effect all canon: You can't do that in 40k, it has so much retconned and changed that its nearly impossible to keep track of it all and make sense of it.

That branch that does weapon testing and fielding new designs: Those new designs are probably STC created and thus already safe. They are being tested to make sure they fall in line with the thinking of the Magos and the Fabricator-General.