I was having a debate with a player today as to whether the Adeptus Mechanicus consider invention - as in creating new technology, or a new implementation of knowledge as a "sin" or heresy. My assumption was that they had ancient tried and tested historic patterns of tech (including fragments of the near-mythical STC) which could be built from, implemented, possibly modified or altered within accepted degrees of toleraance, but that coming up with "new" ideas was frowned upon at best and considered heretical at worst.

Am I wrong in this assumption? Did I assume or is this written or implied in the source material?

That was my understanding at as well.

Invention and new ideas might not exactly be a sin but it is heavily stigmatised.

It says somewhere (under the explorator career path in RT if memory serves) that since the "ancients" in the Dark Age of Technology created wonders and dispite that (or perhaps becouse of that) fell anyway then to belive that one can create something similar or even better within suffering the same fate is hybris against the Machone god... or something like that.

I can't recall where I read it, but because the ancients were so much more knowledgeable and advanced in every way, the AdMech believe there is no way that mankind can improve upon what the Dark Age of Technology achieved.

They consider invention and modification to be disrespectful and ultimately futile. Rather then looking forward, the AdMech looks to the past, recovering lost knowledge rather then focusing on developing something new. What can be rediscovered (or has been rediscovered) must surely be superior to anything contemporary researchers could develop now.

There is some limited research, but most of it seems to circulate around attempting to better understand how a given piece of archaeotech works.

The Explorator fleets are also sort of an exception. Although they ostensibly do search for STC patterns and Dark Age tech, they also recover and study xenos tech to determine what use or danger it poses. This means the Explorator fleets are comparatively forward thinking and less conservative then the rest of the AdMech.

Individual Magos of suffiicent rank are also able to initiate their own study programs and since they answer to almost no one, its difficult to say exactly what their programs are doing. Although most Magos that achieve the rank are arch-conservatives, but there are a few radicals and hidden tech-hereteks here and there.

Bladehate said:

It depends on how far up you are in the AdMech, imo, and also just how you, ah, disclose the "invention."

"Yo, boss, I've been doing a ... side project in my spare time involving some advanced plasma dynamics..." - not good.

"Oh reverent one, by the Grace of the Omnissiah we have been blessed! When we were cleaning warehouse 216-Mu-Theta, we found an ancient schematics, detailing the wisdom of the ancients about how to make a hallowed cannon-grade plasma generator. Why, the stasis seal was a marvel unto itself - the schematics don't look a day aged!" - better.

The simple answer is: No.

Upper level Majos still invent and understand science. The lower on the totem pole you are the less likely you are to know how to create rather than just maintain/use technology.

Think of an adept attempting to recreate a lost technology. He will have to experiment and innovate to either recreate it through reverse engineering, intuition, testing, or even figuring out how a xenos form of the tech works then reinventing it with imperial tech - liek the Flip Belts from Into the Storm/Rogue Trader.

Basicly the R&D MO is "Don't reinvent the wheel."

Also it could be in line with maintaining control. If people keep sending back new discoveries and STC patterns to Mars then it's just that much stronger of a grip the AdMech have over imperium tech as well as being able to account for certain things missing. It's harder to predict self-initiative in the myrid priesthood so the Search For Knowledge is continuously preached/encouraged, the impact invention has on progress, and keeping the more "useful" information out of reach aside from the Magos (the loyal are all known and much more easily observable).

So it's not a "sin" per say but it is punished in the similar severity to one through indirect channels like reassignments that make them more conspicuous or simply make effective research impossible.

Also, (some 1d4chan entertaining explanation I'm not gonna copypasta here) javascript:void(0);/*1317617308796*/

The_Shaman said:

what he says!

bobh said:

The complex answer, however, is far more interesting... we are, afterall, talking about a group that is as much a secretive religious organisation as it is a collective of scientists and engineers.

Nerd King said:

Fundamentally, it comes down to interpretation. At its heart, the core belief of the Cult Mechanicus is that the Machine God is the embodiment of all knowledge and comprehension in the universe. Everything that there is to know (subject to the specifics of interpretation) already exists, and thus there is no purpose in seeking to create new knowledge - indeed, such an act is presumptious and irreverent in the extreme, for it demonstrates that one believes himself to know better than the Machine God.

The matter of Xenos technology is a good example of where the interpretation makes all the difference. Some believe that Xenos technology is valuable knowledge in its own right, that it represents a debased and impure version of blessed machinery, to be studed so that its principles can be sanctified and recreated in a pure and safe manner. Others, the more orthodox within the Cult Mechanicus, believe that Xenos technology is inherently blasphemous and corrupt, a mockery of the true and sacred sciences, and contains nothing of value.

Invention should be regarded similarly - on the one hand, it may be considered as a matter of increasing insight and comprehension of the universe to be able to create technologies through experimentation - you aren't actually creating new knowledge, merely experiencing a divine revelation as to how a given machine functions in order to develop it into a purer state. Alternately, others may regard any technical knowledge that does not come strictly from the established technological canon of the Adeptus Mechanicus to be a heresy. While "new" variants of various Astartes vehicles have come to light, for example, it has nonetheless taken centuries of deliberation amongst the Martian Priesthood to determine whether such variants are acceptable variations ("yes, you can do that, so long as you properly appease the Machine's spirit), improper deviances ("what in the designation of all that is holy did you do to this sacred machine?"), or even blessed functionality newly-rediscovered ("Omnissiah be praised! It turns out that the Machine was built to be customised in that way all along!").

Good thread.

My thoughts are that in as much as "invention" means making limited innovations within the limits and principles of existing human technology, as revealed by existing STC data, then it probably is acceptable - provided it's done by members of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the more senior the better.

However, the more one deviates from this narrow definition, the more troubles one will encounter. This is especially true if the inventor is from outside the Adeptus Mechanicus, who would rather close ranks and execute an innovator than allow any competition to their monopoly over mastery of technology in the Imperium.

So let me give you an example: Magos Habbakearn of Belacane Forge World discovers a way to align the ray field projectors of a void shield in such a way as to increase shield efficiency by 0.2% whilst also decreasing energy requirements by 0.0004%. Being an experienced player of Admech politics, he publishes his discovery among his peers as a new insight into the original intentions of the Omnissiah discovered through a lifetime's study of the Archprints for a void shield...even though this isn't actually true. This is an acceptable form of invention.

In contrast, Shipwright Senioris Felk, a borderline Heretek operating from the outlaw Van Hoort shipyard discovers a new way to vent a ship's plasma drive that is completely safe and will absolutely reduce the risk of a plasma drive breach. His attempts to publicize the discovery are NOT an acceptable form of invention. The Adeptus Mechanicus' first reaction to his discoveries will not be interest in the technical data, but outrage that he has attempted to display the kind of technical expertise they regard as their purview. This type of behaviour is likely result in his assasination by mercenaries in the pay of Mars

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Very true. I also think that a lot of Adeptus Mechanicus Magi are itching to invent, but are scared of the consequences. (Execution, servitorisation). They deliberately limit themselves to creating variants for existing vehicles in the "blessed functionality newly-rediscovered " category. You can bet a lot of true invention gets squeezed under the radar using this category.

I read somewhere that a lot of times, somebody will come up with a brilliant, amazing invention, reveal it to the world, and be sentenced to death. Then, his inventions or schematics will not be completely destroyed, and a hundred years or so after his death, he will be recognized as a brilliant saint and his invention accepted and legalized.

It certainly can happen. The AdMech's decision-making obviously function on several levels. There is the dogma of the Machine Cult - after all, it's first a religion. Then there is the interpretation of the dogma - just think of what Western religion considered permissible or not 500 years ago, or still considers in different countries. Then we come to AdMech politics. It's not discussed often but many Magi are part of factions that wrestle for authority, and in the name of their struggle patronize or sacrifice junior tech-adepts even when by their beliefs alone, they shouldn't.

Bladehate said:

Which is why the Mechanicus just fudges the logic when it comes to newly invented things.

The Black Templars didn't " invent " the Land Raider Crusader, they 'rediscovered' and old design that was there all along, just waiting for the Omnissiah to deliver it, in his mechanical wisdom. Though I'm sure being Space Marines kinda helps with things like that, what with being insanely powerful military forces and all that.

And even with that, it's not as homogenous an organization as people like to make it out (but then, there are misconceptions abound in the 40K fandom). Invention exists, and is permited, but it has to conform to their very orthodox protocols and beliefs, and then it has to be approved by the higher ups if you ever want it to get past the prototype stage. Hence things being mind-numbingly slow.

So it does tend to be easier to try and find old stuff and reverse-engineer it.

No, not in the least.

The driving mission of the AdMEch is the Quest for Knowledge. While typically referred to in terms of exploration and an endless search for the lost STCs, it also includes research and development - invention.

This quest is persued within the framwork of the 'Sixteen Universal Laws'

These Laws are the guiding beacons to all Cult Mechanicus and are the central ideas and beliefs of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

The Mysteries

01. Life is directed motion.
02. The spirit is the spark of life.
03. Sentience is the ability to learn the value of knowledge.
04. Intellect is the understanding of knowledge.
05. Sentience is the basest form of Intellect.
06. Understanding is the True Path to Comprehension.
07. Comprehension is the key to all things.
08. The Omnissiah knows all, comprehends all.

The Warnings

09. The alien mechanism is a perversion of the True Path.
10. The soul is the conscience of sentience.
11. A soul can be bestowed only by the Omnissiah.
12. The Soulless sentience is the enemy of all.
13. The knowledge of the ancients stands beyond question.
14. The machine spirit guards the knowledge of the ancients.
15. Flesh is fallible, but ritual honours the machine spirit.
16. To break with ritual is to break with faith.

So the Mysteries are focussed on EXPANDING knowledge, understanding, and comprehension.

Invention is definately not sinful, although it probably has to be viewed in regard to the 13th Warning - nothing invented can compare to the inventions of the ancients.

Luddite said:

That's great stuff - where is it from?

After something is invented they pray to the Omnisiah and perform various rites. If the result is good enough it is considered to be an epiphany of the Omnisiah. if not, it is heresy

Nerd King said:

The 16 Laws were originally mentioned the Battlefleet Gothic supplement 'Ships of Mars' (if i recall correctly).

The Laws themselves were first published in the Inquisitor supplement on Explorator Warbands by Gav Thorpe

Here: http://secteur-calixis.fr/docs/Mechanicus_Explorator_Warbands.pdf

The Inquisitor rules were dreadful really, but the fluff associated with it, like this and the Thorian Sourcebook are solid gold and in my opinion required reading for anyone roleplaying in the 40k universe...

Luddite said:

However, try as they might to forget it, the Mechanicus are still human. Look at powerful religious bodies in the real world for plenty of examples of lofty ideals being given nothing but lip service by high-ranking church figures in the interest of their political agendas & power plays. Add in the medievalness of 40K & it's even worse. Hell, look at the Ecclessiarchy!

Alpha Chaos 13 said:

But the AdMech gives more than 'lip service' though, not least through the Quest for Knowledge.

However, there's also a massive R&D organisation within the AdMech Adeptus Titanicus; the Divisio Investigatus

'The Investigatus is the research division; its role is to construct the Titans of all the orders, and to engineer and test improvements in technology. All of the Investigatus orders are based on Mars, the capital Forge World. At times a research order takes part in battles in order to field test new designs'.

I think its clear that the AdMech DO NOT consider invention a sin. Quite the opposite.

Luddite said:

You might think that. I'm inclined to disagree.

Just because you're performing research and development, doesn't mean that you've invented something new - reverse-engineering archaeotech, and the interpretation of schematic-fragments discovered on distant worlds will both require extensive research, development and testing before they can be approved for service.

As has already been noted, presenting a new development as "look what I made" shows an attitude of presumption - of an individual presuming to know better than the Machine God, which is frankly blasphemous. Presenting it as "it is the Machine God's will; it was always meant to do that and we just didn't realise it" will spark theological, scientific and theophysical debate which may last decades or centuries (alongside potential approvals for research and development) and may result in the new development being approved for use.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

But the Divisio Investigatus field test NEW DESIGNS. There's nothing in the description/fluff of the Divisio Investigatus that limits those new designs to 'reverse engineering archaeotech' as you seem to suggest.

Of course some of these developments will be reverse engineering, but where's the evidence that they ALL are?

You may presume that if you wish...all i'm saying is, according to the written sources, its seems evident that the AdMech are actively engaged in developing new technology (alongside the search for the STCs, maintaining the old tech and searching for the lost knowledge of the ancients) within at least one of the major Divisions of the organisation.

Luddite said:

There's also nothing in that description that explains where those "new designs" come from. Given that we've seen countless sources explaining about the Quest for Knowledge, the ongoing search for STCs, and the ways that variant designs for a wide range of vehicles come into existence, it's hardly a leap to reconcile the scientific conservatism of the Adeptus Mechanicus and the concept of an R&D division, as opposed to homing in on a single 20-year-old source and disregarding everything else.

We are often working with sparse sources.

Are you saying this source is inherently flawed just because its from an early publication?

If i might skirt around a straw man for a moment, you seem to be interpreting this (unclear?) source (from the Adeptus Titanicus rulebook) as 'there are never entirely new designs, therefore the AdMech considers invention a sin'.

All i'm saying is that this source seems to suggest that a major Divisio of the AdMech is dedicated to research and development including 'new designs' and therefore invention is not a sin.

Fair enough that we disagree, but disparaging a '20 year old source' because it presents possible evidence against your arguement seems a bit churlish.

Luddite said:

Not inherently, but an older source exists within (and was created within) a different context. I've grown used to regarding a variety of sources (including, but not limited to, Rogue Trader-era material) with a pinch of salt because changes in attitude within GW can essentially render a source invalid silently - sources fall out of favour and simply aren't referred to any more, rather than retconning them out (and that's frankly a far more hazardous minefield than navigating around retcons). From my perspective, having work go through GW's approvals process, it's a necessary approach to take.

A source from an early publication is of uncertain validity, at least from my perspective, particularly when the subject matter has not been referred to by any other sources for a significant length of time.

I have to agree with N0-1_H3r3.

A "New Design" can certainly be something that is new to the imperium but a 20,000 year old design.

I would say that R&D into items that have no historical or STC record would be tech-heresy.

Anything that falls between those two categories would be a vast grey area where the researcher in question better not get caught.