Walks said:

I do not think you are harsh, it is nice review, howver I do not agree with that. Talisman was always just only random (you can lose whole game with one wrong Adventure Card) and Dragons make your movement more strategic, because you are give more choices - if to draw Dragon Card or accees field, or some Field could be sometimes disabled etc...

And also from whole expansion I really have "dragon feeling" - I mean, there are lots of Dragons on the Board, nice Dragon staffs etc...

What I agree that this expansion make game longer, much much longer. In two we have played around 2 hours, which is kind of long play. And the Dragon Tower itself - that was Hell.

From my view Dragon expansion is keeping Talisman feeling, I mean it is still the same . rolling dices and drawing cards If you are expecting something differnet, look for another game

Walks said:

I agree with you on most points, and the reason I see why the games take longer with Dragon expansion is that the early game suddenly became harder to survive. Which results in characters dying more often and therefore games take longer time. None of the other expansions did this. Strategy wise because the dragon expansion made it much harder early game and it also killed some of the more aggressive tactics. The whole early game is all about surviving.

But I do feel that dungeon and highland added more tactical benefits with the rewards like ankrell and feather object from dungeon which allows you to teleport to crown from plain of peril. Of course you can adapt the rules the way you want. For example you could delay the dragon token drawing to after a certain amount of turns so the dragon expansion don't come into play until mid game for example.

Or the way we play it is that you only draw tokens when you roll a 1 or a 6 for movement. This slowed down the early game deaths pretty much.

Hi Guys, I don't own the dragon expansion yet but i d like to buy it in the next days. I used to play at Talisman since i was a child!

I am also still waiting for the dragon expansion.

I hope i get it this month!

It's 2 o'clock in the night and I can't just go to sleep after my the first Dragon Expansion game. I'll write down a few thougths, in the hope to relax.

I had a good game with the Dragon Rider, lost as always because of a Spell cast by the usual lucky one who got the right Spell, had me fail the roll in the worst possible way, something that never happens the other way around, and so... Dragon Expansion doesn't change anything about the randomity of Talisman and doesn't give any secret weapon or defense to bad luck aficionados like me. Not that I expected some strategy twists, but since no new Spell was added I thought we were getting a step away from that plague.

I'm not tolerating anymore that a Talisman game, lasting 4 good hours, is decided by a Random Spell or any other nasty Spell, of which there are a lot. I thought that in three well stuffed Dragon Decks there was enough room for some anti-Spellcaster stuff. Come on, what do we have against the goddamned Spells? The Amulet from the base deck, who's not a beloved item and it's missing since dozens of games (gotta check if it's still in that bunch of Adventure Cards). On the contrary there's plenty of cards that give Spells, and plenty of Spellcasting Characters that replenish one Spell per turn or better.

I don't know if other people share my hate of Spells; they decide every game of Talisman since Sacred Pool has come out and have been an overwhelming presence since Frostmarch. I really want to limit Spells in some way, since I can't tolerate that everybody is getting plenty of those game-changing resources. Play for hours and then lose because of a card? It happened too many times to talk about coincidences and too many times it happened to me, so I'm getting sensitive about it.

Back on topic, this is my first glance at Dragons Expansion:

1) the Dragon King mechanic is nice but dispersive. I liked the way the board was populated by scales, but drawing a scale each turn really slows things down. And you need to rethink every second which Dragon is the current King. I would fix this by changing the king every 6 or 9 scales, placing a token every 3 scales but all in a single move. Or even better, use the Domain of Dragons Alternative Ending that avoids all the scale placement and the annoying "Dance of the Dragon Kings". I think that Ending makes everything more enjoyable and resolves many issues of the standard Dragon gameplay.

2) The contents of the Dragon Decks are excellent in variety, thematics, graphics and game impact. The balance of Enemies (about 50%), Events, Places and Strangers (25%) and Objects/Followers (remaining 25%) is well devised. The feeling of the Dragon invasion is right there, they nailed it well.

3) The Characters are good, apparently, but I saw something that I do not like very much.

-The Fire Wizard is pyroblasting everything in the first part of the game and he's basically safe unless he draws from Grilipus deck. He won't be so good without the scales, so in a normal game he won't be much better than a Priest that burns Spirits and gains nothing (in 2nd edition, now he gains a Spell). What I do not like is "gain 1 Spell if your Craft allows". A Sage-like ability would have been enough, now he's casting Spells all the time almost like the Warlock or Sprite. 3 Fate? Why?

- The Dragon Rider is a very good Character, if she gets a cheap dragon the game goes downhill in no time. The problem is: what shall we do with this wonderful Character/miniaure if we do not play with the Dragon Expansion? Nothing, she's useless.

- The Dragon Hunter can easily kill any Strength enemy he draws. He can kill any face-up Str Dragon and not only, because he can draw/encounter extra cards. Overpowered with the Dragon Expansion, possibly ok for the standard game.

- Minotaur, Conjurer and Dragon Priestess look more balanced. I like the Minotaur very much, at least he got a thematic limitation, something that I've seen last time in the base set.

4) The gameplay is all about the dragon scales and unfortunately a lot of time is wasted switching, placing, discarding. The dear old Adventure cards and spaces are covered by this dragon overlay and most Characters won't bother too much about drawing other cards, especially the three overpowered Characters. I got the Orb of Knowledge and NEVER used it, since it can't be used on Dragon cards (see rulebook, why???). The scales can really get a Character to a disproportionate growth: you're not afraid to draw any Dragon Card, but still you fear a Ruins space with a Cave Troll and a Wild Boar on it. No need to look for the old favourite cards, except for the insidious Spells. The sensation is that the expansion completely replaces the game, the game being not Talisman anymore. Perhaps I did something wrong, but I didn't find a way to use a Talisman in the Dragon Tower. Really, is there no use for a Talisman in the Tower?

This expansion is not bad, but it left me unsatisfied. It changes a lot, it gives a feeling, but in the same time it removes what I like of this game (casual exploration and travel to key locations) while keeping what I hate (Spells that decide the winner). I had some fun with the Dragon Rider and I assume players with the Fire Wizard and Dragon Hunter also had, but people with the Conjurer or Dragon Priestess had not. They felt one step below, period, no chance to compete in the same environment. I'm curious to see how bad will base Characters play: in the Dragon Decks there's no Spirit at all... what shall a Priest do, retire? This expansion is wrapped up in himself, somehow it wants to disconnect with the game we saw so far.

This is what comes to mind after the first game. I have hope in the Domain of Dragons alternative ending, I'll give it a try next time and report, possibly in a more organized way and with better manners.

It's 3.30, let's go to bed.

The_Warlock said:

I actually won a game with her without using the dragon Expansion. Went to the highlands ASAP and got a Wyvern pretty early in the game, but i see your point. She has no other abilities other than against dragons, and she wouldn´t be my first choice ever. At least she has some good overall stats to begin with ( the same as elf ) and the miniature is so cool that i would play her just for that.

Regards

I recently played a 3 player game with all expansions bar the reaper himself, Dungeon and Highlands. (I wanted to simplify things for our first dragon run)

The game went well with one of my opponents getting the Dragon Rider and the other the Conjurer, I got the Dragon Priestess. The Dragon Rider managed to get a dragon within the first half hour and did great from then on in, the conjurer did crazy awesome things being able to pull cards over to herself as and when desired. I got Dragon raged A LOT thankfully as I was the priestess I was immune! ;-) The priestess abilities weren't as blatantly strong as the others but fortune 5 is awesome! The cultist abilities never got used.

We had no problems with the tokens, it never took long to do and was simple enough, the dragon cards themselves were often brutally powerfull with a collection of hideous dragons and nice magic items, that being said you could mostly choose to either draw an adventure card or just go elsewhere so we were never forced to land on a big nasty enemy. this worked really well allowing us to power up on normal adventure cards and when we were ready go for the dragon cards.

In the end I managed to sneak a win through a Dragonspire which took me up the crown of command. I wasn't expecting a random place which could allow you to win, but have no problems with it's existence. (you had to have a lot of scales to get to the CoC) I was lucky though as the other two were doing well, the Dragon Rider especially, it was a close thing.

The game lasted around 3 hours which is pretty standard for us 3 player, I enjoyed it and will certainly play with the dragon expansion again, on the other hand the 3 dragons lords do change the game considerably (a good thing once in a while) so I wont use it every game. It kind of reminded me of the alternate endings for Runebound, in that it changes the way the game plays which makes for nice variety.

Daniel.

Darklord said:

This comparison with Runebound is very appropriate. Unlike previous expansions, the Dragon Expansion doesn't merge itself with the rest of the game and changes the game considerably, more or less like a Runebound Adventure Variant or big box expansion. What looks odd it's the minimum use that all other components get with the Dragons. At least Runebound varies the basic theme but Dragon completely replaces the base game IMO. I believe that many Characters so far would not be able to cope with Dragons as the Dragon Characters do. Minstrel could be safe from Dragon enemies, but besides that he has no help in progression. I think 70% of the base game Characters are underpowered for Dragon Expansion, if compared to "Dragon-oriented" ones. I still have to try, but there are too many to test (I assume playtesters came to the same conclusion).

You say you and your fellow players drew from the Adventure Deck until you got strong enough to face the Dragon Scales, but I assure you this is a waste of time when you're the Fire Wizard, Dragon Hunter, Dragon Rider and perhaps also the Minotaur. When you know the nature of the Dragon decks, which should be clear to all players when game begins, you'd better attempt a Dragon Scale if you're in the conditions to win an opponent there. Varthrax has all Strength Enemies, Grilipus has all Craft Enemies and Cadorus is the most uncertain one, but he has the best rewards inside. If you understand this, you won't be afraid of Dragon decks because they're less random than expected. Except for a handful of cards, there's nothing that can harm you there beside the Enemies, and you can choose which Enemies suit your Character. There's a hint box in the manual where some strategic hints are given and this subject is stressed enough.

Strategy works only if other players did not understand what's inside the decks, but it's not fair to hide information so I told them from the beginning. Nobody drew something unexpected from the Dragon decks and only blind daring Characters lost a combat against a Dragon scale enemy. This is not valid for the standard Adventure Deck, where many surprises await the unaware Characters.

If you don't draw a lot of Adventure Cards, the contents of the base game are underused. What remains are the Spells and these are not what I like the most considering where this game is going now (Spells determine victory 90% of the time). This is the reason of my first negative impression of Dragon Expansion.

The_Warlock said:

Oh ok I didn't actually realise this, that does actually change things massively from a randomness point of view. Interesting!

I had the option of playing the fire wizard, but really didn't think much of him, what good is throwing fireballs if you can't keep what you kill as a monster trophy? Seems dreadfull to me. Shame as I like the mini.

Daniel.

Darklord said:

Nice to hear.

I agree that drawing tokens should not be a big problem in the game.

You can indeed still draw adventure cards, and avoid the tokens if possible, to build yourself up, and come back later to hunt those dragons down.

That's how i would play it too.

I am still interested in dragon domain ending. i wonder how it plays. Then you can't hide anymore.

Darklord said:

This goes for the Fire Wizard used in a standard Talisman game. With Dragon expansion, he can kill Enemies, discard trophy but gain a Dragon Scale. With Dragon Scales, combat becomes easier and after a while you can stop pyroblasting and start cashing trophies. The Fire Wizard has a soft spot for Varthrax cards and most Cadorus cards, but he has to gain some Craft for Grilipus cards. Not very difficult to accomplish.

Darklord said:

Fire wizard can use his ability against enemies that he can't win.

In this manner, he will not lose a life.

He can defend himself with this ability.

I am glad that FFG has ruled that he can't take it as a trophy, because that would be too powerfull and too easy.

Anyway, he can already gain the tokens with his ability if he defeat those dragons. that makes him better than he already is.

Persiatic said:

It sounds like this is a good rule.

When i did some practice with the dragon expansion how it feels to draw dragon tokens, my feelings were the same as many others here on this topic.

Seems like i change my mind a little..

I think that your rule, will play faster as the normal rule.

Drawing only tokens if a 1 or 6 is rolled. place on board and change crown.

Also for dragon tower, dragon lords will change every turn depending which token was drawn.

Maybe we try this rule, after we have play with the normal rule.

Luckily, there is always domain of dragons..

Velhart said:

Try it, My group have been playing like this over 10 games and it balances pretty well. The main benefits are:

* The board doesn't quickly get over crowded with tokens

* The entire game doesn't rely around collecting dragon tokens, (Meaning dungeon and Highland get's back into the game & Going for PVP strats are again valid)

* Because the game get's less dangerous early, ppl don't die as much and game goes faster.

NOTE! because we draw less tokens we have taken out the sleep tokens. Only way sleep tokens can be placed on the board is if a card instructs such a thing.

Persiatic said:

I think it saves a lot of time.

It's still possible that there will be enough tokens on the board, as long as players will roll a 1 or a 6.

But that makes it excited i think.

PS: Nice idea about the sleep tokens. I will keep that in mind. If it will dominate the game, then i will keep them out of the game.

Merry Christmas,

recently we played Talisman with Dragon expansion. 3 players (Rider, Conjurer, Hunter), domain of dragons and dragon tower. We forgot to take dragon scales after killing enemies from dragon cards. But this wasnt necessary because Rider and Hunter were so powerfull even without this.

Rider enslaved a small dragon during her 3 turn and then she was unstoppable. She can land wherever she wants due to "up to 3" rule. She can kill almost everything with this +3 for dragons and roll 2 dices and select in battle or psychic combat . Due to lots of craft enemies she raised her stats up to 12 cones and then got Magic Object, which allowed her to use craft in battles instead of strength. Then to go through Dragon Tower was really piece of cake. She even managed to kill 3 dragons with Craft 21. When she entered CoC, Dragon King looked as a small rat...

Hunter was also powerfull. 2dices + your strength - this is unstoppable combo. You talked about pyroblast a lot, but "deadly cut" is even more deadly than simple pyroblast. Hunter can even take trophies after this cut! In our game hunter was not so lucky to draw dragons.

Conjurer with her ability to 'conjure' whatever card was not so successfull. Because she has no such strenght to kill everybody in her way. Biggest advantage, that she can loose lifes one after another and then 'conjure' place and heal herself at no price.

Domain of dragons - interesting alternative. But I calculated, that we used only 10 cards from simple adventure deck. All other cards were from dragon decks. Dragon rage wasn't so frequent, so powerfull chars really played with no worries.

All in all: dragon expansion changes game significantly. Rider is really strongest one, when she has enslaved dragon. Hunter, Fire wizard are also very powerful chars comparing with others. They leveling up too quickly, I think. So in the next game we will try to use some house rules:

- From level7 you need more trophies to get additional level (8 for lvl8, 9 for lvl9, etc.)

- Rider can choose to to move exactly of her roll, or plus 3 (not plus up to 3)

- Also something we have to elaborate about Dragon cards vs normal Adventure cards. The easiest way is to play without dragons expansion But next year is year of Dragon, so during New Year eve we have to play with this expansion Lets see.

gedasm said:

You can add a houserule that dragon cards are only triggered if you draw adventure or region cards.

I agree that if you play domain of dragons, then you are somewhat only playing with the dragon cards.

More players have tried this house rule.

Or use the houserule that dragon tokens are only be placed on the space if you roll a 1 or 6..

Hmmm... One more epic game, which lasted 4hours. Longtime mainly due to dragon scales and not quick players. Too long thinking, if to take dragon scale from bag now, or to think more Then if to roll die for movement or to think more

5chars: Rider, Conjurer, Priestess, Minotaur, Hunter. Dragon expansion only, Dragon tower, Alternate and hidden ending (from Azoic list), fast start bonus (+2 strenght), easy level up (5trophies for level), 4scales to crown Dragon King.

I would say, game was very well balanced. Rider is very primitive figure without enslaved dragon. But once she get mounted, things become much brighter. Though Rider has to go home in the middle of the game, so she was discarded then. Up until that she was almost equal to leaders with a good progress and perspective. Conjurer had a good start, got lots of advices, when to conjure and what to conjure. Not everything was perfect, but due to fast start bonus (+2 strenght) she was successful to deal with most of enemies and started to shake dragons early. Priestess played also very well. In fact, she was a leader in the game up until she got Random spell and lost all strength cones. She then tried to catch up, especially was succesful using followers against dragons and then prayed. Started to build up muscles quite fast again. But sudenly lost to Dragon Toad special ability and became a Toad. This was end of her game Minotaur started very slowly. Because he has not big power against dragons. Especially against green ones. So he was very cautious and built craft patiently. Everyone was in laugh, because at some moments his craft was bigger than strenght But once his craft reached 10, he started to roll big numbers for his movement. That was nice stampede Hunter was slow. He has bad luck with deadly cut: 3 pairs rolled in a row! Then lost time to heal. Then forgot ability to teleport to dragon directly. But he had moderate power and tried to sneak to the tower with 6craft in his brain. That was not enough. After loosing to some tripple green dragon and some rage after that, he was without talisman, without any follower with bare ass So decided to go back.

Winner was Minotaur. He was in the tower together with Conjurer. They both beated all dragons (even trippled ones) with a pleasure, so gaining even more craft and strength. There were only 2 fights, when rolling dice was a factor, who will win. Out of >10 encounters. They were both together at the final stair in the tower. Then alternate ending played better for Minotaur and he won the game.

Lessons to learn: go to the tower earlier. Do not try to build up yourself too much. Show for cautious players, that fast player can win. But dragon tower is hostile to fortune-hunter. You have to build ~10 in both stats. Or at least to collect enough scales for weaker stat. This is difference from the Crown of Command, because there you can trie with one stat only.

Long game. Everybody afraids dragon tower and running around outer region, killing dragons. In fact, dragon tower is not so scary. But example with hunter and 6craft in the tower showed, that you have to build up BOTH stats. Long game. In fact, game with scales is longer also due to game mechanics. Some players, who are playing less, they thinking for too long. This is embarassing, but you have to respect them, otherwise you have to play solitaire

Chars are well balanced. You have all the time to think about YOUR char SPECIAL abilities and use them. Dragon chars are very powerful. All of them. But still game takes too long. 4 hours is too long.

One more notice: with dragon expansion we havent Player vs Player encounters at all! Maybe this was because everybody was concentrated on their own development killing dragons rather that to steal things from other chars. Also missed final battle at the Crown Player vs Player. This is usually exciting. Because chars killed Dragon king with no problem at all. But if to fight against each other, then it might be more interesting

But still game is too long. Those, who will purchase Dragon expansion, please be patient for several games. Learn about chars abilities, learn about game mechanics (what to do without thinking - automatically). Then game will be faster.

Happy New Year! Dragon Year!

interesting write up, Gedasm. We haven't played Dragon yet, as only one person in our crew bought it. It's also winter, and we all live a ways apart. But some valid cautions to consider once we get to it.

We're not the kind to be afraid of a long game, as we've player past editions with as many as 8 players and spent the whole night at it having fun. But I can see how this expansions extra upkeep is going to drag. I already assumed so after reading through the PDF manual.