@Animus

I don't want to say that emotions are all bad but chaos is a path of no return. There are probably some examples of last minute redemption but usually once you take a step down the chaos road your soul is toast.

This does beg the question of "What's your point?"

Yes, extricating yourself from Chaos alive is nearly impossible, especially considering there's literally noone around to help you do it ("Hello. My name is Arcastus the Thrice-Cursed, Lord of the Fey'rin Abyss and Despoiler of Coronia - and I'm a Chaos worshipper" "Hello Arcastus!").

This merely means that you've got to watch your own actions all the more - Assuming Corruption affects your mind as well and makes you more like your deity, viewing their emotion as an end instead of a mean, trying to stay as low as possible corruption-wise is going to keep you on your original motives for turning to Chaos far longer than those who embrace it and lose themselves. Should you wish to stay human, you can't fail your deities too often, you can't please them too often and you can't call on them too often. In fact, it's probably safest to remain unaligned as that shuts down one source of Corruption points outright.

And of course, someone truly dedicated to his ideals shouldn't hesitate to put a bullet to his brain once he starts losing sight of them.

Deinos said:

I would sujest not playing a Chaos Charater as a evil fr the sake of evil charater.

My best example I could give was a Raven Queen paladien I played in D&D. He wasn't in it for some concept of "Good" or "Evil" that other people would label him with. He would do what he did for further his own goals, and the goals of his God. (That and hunt Undead to the end ofthe earth if he had to.) He would acculy get alonge with most chararaters and NPC's, unless they got in his way.

You bassicly need to play a Chaos Charaters with a more nutreal alignment in mind. They do not do anything "good" or "Evil" on purpose. They have their own moral code that they follow, regardless if the wider socitiy as a whole is accepting of it or not.

Cifer said:

I might got carried away a little. What I'm trying to say is that chaos is ultimately evil and over time its worshippers become evil too. Thats at least how I think about it and I see this argument may be a little pointless since it seems we all feel strongly about our points of view and its not likely to change.

Know not "evil" bad guys

- Cypher the Fallen

- The Legion of the Damned, damend souls helping humanity

- Lucious the Ethernal, he is only concerned with is blade mastery perfection nothign else.

- Fabious Biles, Not necessarily evil, just trying to create better SM. Anyone doing this is heretic, over the years he may be getting a bit on the "bad" side but is still considered Neutral (Undivided).

and ma favorite "Ebil"

The Soul Drinkers, evil dudes for the good side.

crisaron said:

True but he is still one sick bastard

Animus said:

So are the Interogator of the Inquisition... actually Lucious would not even attack a worthyless oponent (is WS stat would go down, he had so much honor he owuld not fight well a bad fighter...). The Inquisitor woudl not even think twice about torturing an innocent, "just in case".

I'm not buying that chaos chars have to be "evil." I'd generally add Thousand Sons to the aforementioned list.

Also, to state all chaos characters are "evil" is rather a cop-out, since there's a big difference between, say, a chaotic psyker who uses Sacrificial Slaughter to completely avoid Perils of the Warp and has a big van o' innocent slaves that they use for peril-free sacrificial powers, and one who doesn't. Likewise, there's a big difference to a Khornate or Nurglite who takes the plunge and receives the Mark of their God which will cause them to become 24/7 killers, and those who avoid that step. Likewise there's a difference between a marked Khornate who spends all his days killing random civilians and one who relocates to the front lines of, say, a war against the orks or tyranids.

I don't Chaos isn't about Good and Evil so much as Power,what you do with that power and would you do to attain more power.

Exoviper said:

The problem I see there is you're picking and choosing the best and worst of each side. What about a comparing some Sisters of Battle and their mutilated and bleeding Arco-Flagellants to some Slaaneshi cultists who just look like beautiful dancers wtih guns? I don't think it's fair portraying the good and evil of an Obliterator and paintings of Sanguinus, the things are not equal.

The Imperium represents the worst of the dark ages combined with the Spanish inquisition. Playing the emotionally driven characters who are evil based on the point of view of the inquisitors isn't necessarily going to be terrible. Keep in mind the lense that they are seen through, and just how awful the imperium can be. Penal legions? Servitors? Exterminatus? Chaos all of a sudden sounds a little unfairly framed.

Besides the fat that all Sanguinus decendent are an inch from becoming Khorne Berzerker, since there ain't many difference in the eye of the Warp Venegance is still Khorne....

Autarkis02 said:

Here here!

HI:

& what about the terms used by the "other team" (Team Xaos)?

The term "Black Crusade" ain't sending too good vibrations, for instance... Unless it's a term that the Imperium designated.

It's like in the X-Men comics, regarding Magneto's cause & views-- a lot of muties would agree with them, but how on Earth would anyone in their right mind join a group called the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants?

L

@LETE

The term "Black Crusade" ain't sending too good vibrations, for instance... Unless it's a term that the Imperium designated.

You mean unlike terms such as "Exterminatus", "Inqusition" and "Catechism of Hate"?

LETE said:

YEAH ABSOLUTELY, like NO ONE Would ever join a gang called Hells Angels... oups wait or the Noe-Na... hummm.... or the Kuk...

The Brother hood of Isl.... hummm. You know what I think we live in a BC.

Well IRL, violent crazyperson movements often love the color black.

Though you can always replace any controversial sounding terms with "Freedom," "Peace," "Liberty," etc.

Deinos said:

or RED...

or flashing yellow, white, stroboscope, it gives me violent reactions! (joke)

Hi!

I'm typing about the name itself; let me see if I can explain it better, based on some of your answers:

"Nazi" is a contraction of National Socialist Workers Party. Does that name sound evil ? Plus, as you may already guess, they didn't think of themselves as evil - to the contrary, they thought they had the right (pun) & they were doing humanity a favour! It's because of their actions that the name has evil connotations. Neo nazis, if you ask one that can/actually wanna talk, probably don't think they are wrong in their views. Now, of course, all right-thinking people think otherwise.

& don't get me started on the "noble knights of the Ku-Klux Klan... ("Ku-Klux" comes from (& I quote:) ""circle" in Greek")." They still think of themselves as "on the right." (another pun). That name doesn't sound evil either.

That's what I'm referring to. You could have an evil organization with a perfectly sounding normal/inconspicous name , like the Central Intelligence Agency, the International Monetary Fund, the National security Agency, the Khmer Rouge, or the Bilderbergs (fnord).*

...So either the chaos-lovin' peeps are playing to the stereotype, or the term Black Crusade was coined by the Imperium, to cast them in the worst-possible light. What I am now asking is did the term originated from them (the chaos worshippers)? If it did, they need a better PR machine (probably Slanneshii), 'cos it's not a good name for recruitment!

Even a Waaagh! sounds more neutral (& fun).

Thanks for your time! Please don't start a flame-war.

L

*About the Hells Angels, you got me there bud. Peeps joining that organization probably know what they are getting into (I mean, they better, or they'll probably end up dead).

Cifer said:

Isn't the term "exterminatus" on par with: "Take out an enemy of the State/exterminate with extreme prejudice (like recently, Bin Laden for the USA)"? That's what I've always thought.

"Inquisition" means inquiry.

"Cathechism of Hate"... that's new to me, could you elaborate (sorry) ?

Thanks

L

Animus said:

Hi:

This sounds a-lot like Nirvana. Merging with the Buddha. "Oneness." Stuff like that.

Chaos apotheosis sounds like the Taoist endstate (I may be wrong on this one): Becoming immortal & alchemically super-powerful.

Jus' my 2 thrones

L

Black crusades :

originally those Crusades led by the Black legion hence Black Crusade....

In wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lord_of_the_Night_(Novel) Sahaal is probably one of the best "evil" for a cause. He hates what the Night Lords have become, he says it's not what their primarch would have wanted, he even wonder of the primarch did not give up willing letting the assassin take him, not to have to face is legion and the Imperator.

LETE said:

The Inquisition in 40k is like the spanish inquisition, they burn people on the unlikeliest of charges, have absolute power, ignore any privacy.

Exterminatus is when a planet is destroyed wholesale because there might be something dangerous on it, or it would fall into enemy hands otherwise.

Exterminatus is often performed on overcrowded Hive worlds, meaning a trillion people get blasted into dust for what could be the paranoia of one man.

@LETE

Isn't the term "exterminatus" on par with: "Take out an enemy of the State/exterminate with extreme prejudice (like recently, Bin Laden for the USA)"? That's what I've always thought.

Depends on whether you think "exterminate" is itself a neutral word. I'd consider it somewhat pejorative.

"Inquisition" means inquiry.

And yet, it's most fundamental association are pyres and torture, not the fact that in medieval times they had the most fair trial system.

"Cathechism of Hate"... that's new to me, could you elaborate (sorry)?

It's scripture of the Astartes, essentially telling who they abhor (everyone non-imperial), why they do it ('cause daddy said they're bad) and what they'll do to them (guess).

If we're going purely by words, I can't find much fault with "Black Crusade". The western negative association of the colour black is hardly universal and a Crusade is exactly what the Emperor himself lead and the Imperium still leads.

Warning: High-School level philosophy incoming

As i see it, Chaos is the Nietzschean nightmare. When he (Nietzsche) proclaimed that "God is dead" it was spoken by a madman, someone who had gazed in the abyss too long. While he certainly didn't support christian morality, slave-morals as he called it, he saw the alternative as much worse; an existence without morals, where people would degrade into an utterly meaningless existence, a nihillist existence, if you will.

Chaos is like that abyss. Whoever strays from the narrow path of purity in the eyes of the Emperor, will inevitably abandon the morals of such a perverse insitution such as the Imperium, until their means become their purpose; killing stops being the tool, you plan not because of what you can achieve, but merely because you need to plot. Even in the rare case of apotheosis, you do not get to shape the abyss; you become it.

The only true Übermensch is the Emperor; he created his own morals, gained power and enforced his morals to create Order in the Galaxy under his rule.

Personally, i see no difference in "evil-ness" between Chaos and the Imperium, only shades of grey: The Imperium is stifling in all ways; creatively, scientifically, politically and religiously. Chaos, on the other hand, has no limits; everything is allowed, only hindered by your own potential, but it is also eventually goalless.

Well, it even notes one of the big distinctions of Chaos Undivided is that it is the path that allows you to remain true to yourself. The Mark of Khorne and Nurgle are a bit limiting (gotta kill forever and gotta spread plagues forever), but even those types of characters can avoid taking the mark; the Mark of Slaanesh is at least interesting roleplay (despite that Slaanesh is the most demanding of the gods in some ways), and the Mark of Tzeentch does inspire you towards a worthy cause (the pursuit of knowledge), but the beauty of Chaos Undivided is that you can enjoy all the power and freedom that Chaos offers while never bending knee to a single one of the gods.

But one thing I definitely enjoy about Black Crusade is how open ended it is; the PCs choose their objectives, instead of having a boss NPC hand them down. So anything the PCs do... is on them. They can do good or ill, as they desire, and it is their actions that may determine what post-imperial humanity will be like; a galaxy of freedom, knowledge, and enlightened self-interest, or just one of the rule of the strong.