Dark Heresy was cool...Rogue Trader was awesome...Deathwatch was kinda meh for RP value..seemed more just a pnp combat but had some good points for source material.

Wondering how playing a bad guy...ie Chaos is gonna be feasible. Your not restricted to any real moral code. What keeps people in line on other RP games isnt gonna be present in the bad guy scene. I will be picking it up for source material but ive never seen a bad guy RP game with any moderate success.

"Bad" is a bit one-eyed as a description, more like they're just the "other side" of two equally terrible groups of obnoxious humans. The fact there isn't really a railroaded career as such for characters when I was coming up for ideas can make them fairly interesting in terms of back story and personality. So you can make a charismatic former guardsman with social skills or a psyker with an unnatural affinity for driving tanks and hanging out with a drug dealing ad-mech.

Aye, this isn't a "bad guy" game, unless you decide to make it one. People who don't follow the Imperium, be they just renegades or fully-fledged Chaos worshippers, are humans, people, too, with their own hopes, dreams, etc.

There's nothing that much between them, other than them being influenced by different gods (which, despite what the Imperium says, aren't evil either - they're emotion, they aren't good or bad, but people can become either by following them).

For ideas for a good "bad-guy" game, find an old BBC sci-fi series called Blakes-7 for inspiration. Or even Star Wars ("Luke, use the Tzeench!"). The IoM is pretty darn evil by our 21st century standards.

I think I would have better success playing a good-guy Nurgle follower than an Inquisition agent...

1) Evil is in the mind's eye. There are also a lot of Chaos Space Marines who see themselves as 'just'. 'they' were betrayed and are now a sort of bitter grimdark vigilantes so to speak. Others are amoral nietzchians who underline that if Chaos is a force of nature it isn't 'wrong'. (they're not entirely wrong in this regard either). Others fell against their will or were betrayed by the Empire for slights not persay truthful.

2) Being 'evil' can give great rp opportunities. As rarely a villain will see himelf as evil. Not to mention they'll still have goals, quests etc which will require teamwork.

3) FFG's chosen settings for their rp line tend to stimulate rping. In the case of Black Crusade early on you'll probably be doing a lot of 'bad guy' versus 'bad guy' plots with your side forced to stick together to survive.

4) There is brotherhood among the Traitor Legions. Quite a few novels have shown they form strong friendships and have their own honor codes. Underline this.

5) Roleplaying the 'dark side' can be harder yes but it is also far more rewarding if you pull it of.

Hygric said:

The wages of sin for Judge T Grimm weigh heavy in his pockets at times I imagine. After blowing up his own homeworld with exterminatus when it got over run by the forces of chaos, ah its good to be a state sponsored terrorist some days and the rewards are huge... just do what's asked and dont have a conscience. Think in a hypothetical situation if our BC characters owned a planet that was over run by the Imperium and had a super weapon capable of doing the same thing, I doubt they'd waste it blowing up a few million imperial guard. We'd simply up stakes and use the threat of it to extort people somewhere else

In the other games... you're part of a galactic organization. (not necessarily in RT) So you have to keep the policies of your group in mind. You have your commander type figure who tells you to do things, but you may be sent to do things either pleasing or displeasing to the conscience.

But playing BC felt immediately different to me, because suddenly, my character didn't have "I'm just doing my job" as an excuse... a BC char is just himself, more or less, and his friends and followers, in a galaxy dominated by the "bloodiest and most cruel regime imaginable." Normally, its pretty obvious... if you shoot a heretic, well good job, son, you did the right thing. But in BC, you really don't necessarily know what you should do if you see the "enemy" and won't even necessarily know or agree on who constitutes the enemy.

I had my char pretty much stall for the death (via sacrificial ritual) of an admiral who attempted an exterminatus on their planet, despite having killed hundreds of thousands of people and intended to have killed millions or more... just because it didn't seem right to kill someone at your mercy (and that they might of had use for him). Still, the char was swayed. Still haven't killed anyone, though (aside from a few servitors).

And even if you do want an obvious "bad guy" char its a lot more fun to reach that point by small concessions over many episodes rather than immediately going, "WELL, TIME TO KILL ANOTHER PLANET!"

Deinos said:

You just turned this whole discussion on its head. Black Crusade characters are actually the good guys! It all makes sense!

Really, it does. With the exception of the bat-**** crazy legionnaires and what not your average character from Black Crusade can actually decide for himself. Instead of killing people left and right just because, or because the Man tells him to. Sure, there's no shortage of arm twisting people in the Vortex but still, I really like this angle. I feel stupid for not having seen it myself.

Thanks man. It feels very fresh and liberating.....

Since it is easy to misinterpret text I am going to point out that my above comment is in fact not, ironic.

bladerunner_35 said:

From the eye of the beholder, he may be helping to cull the weak, what as to be doe to protect humanity!

again _>

Khorne : Martial Pride, millitary might, etc

Nurgle : death & birth, nurgle also represent the circle of creation... not just anthropy.

Tzench : Knowledge and change (change the Impire to remove the corps gods and the false prophet! the corrupted governements, etc)

Slanesh : perfection, perfectionist, happiness (one of the most euphoric feeling!)

----------------

I KNOW!!!!

The Emperor Incarnate 2, greater Deamon of Chaos Undivided, Bringner of Change, Arbinger of Xeno Death and Human Rebirth, Creator of the perfect 12, The Great Galatic Uniter, The False God, Great Betrayer of is Sons (asked the wolf to kill is loyal T Suns taht had just warned them, left alone Horus a ADD child with dependence issues, etc).

bladerunner_35 said:

Well I'm glad. I had a similar experience. The whole aspect of looking the other way, reciting the mantra of "just doing my job," and pretending that genocide is awesome gets kind of gloomy.

Not that I don't like DH -- but we're looking forward to an insane degree to when one of the PCs gets to become an inquisitor in about 2900 xp, so we won't have the sword of Damocles hanging over our head.

thanks for the input guys, I havent read the book yet so wasnt sure on the setting it provided. I could see some RP aspects as far as working for the 'good' guys while furthering your own agenda. I do have to admit though in 40k there are no good guys...both sides are pretty evil...just one is worse then the other.

Acatha said:

Actually, neither is worse than the other - they're just different sides of the same coin, both as good or bad as the other.

That's what makes it interesting.

Well, what I like about it, is you're quite potentially your own side, so you got a fresh, clean start, free of any moral baggage belonging to the Imperium, Black Legion, or whatever. That, to me, is the genius aspect of leaving out rules for special legions or whatever; its not joining Team Chaos, its starting Team You.

Omg, Sebastian Thor would be spinning in his grave like a hamster wheel if he read that... I mean... THIS IS HERESY!!!

But jokes aside, while I can agree with what Deinos said about Team You I can certainly disagree with a claim that worshiping chaos gods and being loyal to the Empire are two sides of the same coin. Face it, chaos worshipers are usually evil, chaos gods are evil and the only things awaiting you at the end of the line are:

death - your soul gains the similar value to a chips for demons living in the warp

death - you amused your god/gods enough to be resurrected

spawnhood - you become puddle of insane goo

demonhood - you become one of the most terrifying beings in the galaxy

I won't deny that roleplaying an evil character can't be fun. I think it is but I also accept that chaos is an infinite tide of mutation, madness and carnage in the name of laughing gods. Imo your arguments are basically what they say to the lover level cultists to brainwash them. For example:

Khorne - rage, the most basic instinct to kill, feeds on things like bloodshed, war, rage

Nurgle - decay and death, the ultimate end of all life

Tzeentch - knowledge, change mastery over fate, he's the most complicated one imo, btw Nurgle and Tzeentch hate each other for a reason - Nurgle represents stagnation while Tzeentch is a symbol of constant change

Slaanesh - dark prince of desires, while he looks kindly on things of beauty he will be just as happy if you **** someone with a chainsword, he represents every possible desire and combines them in ways that would blow lesser mortals minds

That is what I believe chaos represents. Certainly you can play a group of renegades who just don't like Imperium or disagree with their filosophy for example I would like to play a heretek with such views. On the other hand my undivided CSM would scream "kill, maim burn" in worship of chaos gods.

LET THE GALAXY BURN!!!

Animus said:

And what awaits a follower of the Emperor in the end? Nothing. They may claim he watches over souls of the faithful, but there is no evidence of that. This is the monster that eats psyker souls for breakfast, so it's not unreasonable to assume that he might just gulp down every other soul of his 'faithful' at the time of death. At least Chaos, through apotheosis, grants you a chance to live forever.

HappyDaze said:

What you say might be true but its hard to find anything about what happens to loyal citizen after death. While there is plenty info about what happens to chaos worshipers there is next to nothing about faithful. I read that they become part of his spirit strenghtening his divine power but I'm not sure if that wasn't some fanfiction. Personally I think The Emperor indeed "eats" souls of his faithfull servants but I'm happy with that I do realise that Empire is terrible regime but I just want to prove that chaos is even worse as it represents worst traits in a human being.

P.S. I think I made a typo in my last post. Where it says "I won't deny that roleplaying an evil character can't be fun" it should be "I won't deny that roleplaying an evil character can be fun". Don't know how to edit posts

A simple test to determine who the 'Bad Guy' is:

1. Get a picture of an ultramarine and a chaos lord.

2. Find a two year old. Ask him/ her to point out which one is the bad guy.

3. Chances are, the one with severed hands/heads hanging from him armor, glowing eyes, horns, and is covered in human blood and flesh runes will be named the 'bad guy.'

Seriously, why do people even argue this point? There are no good guys in 40k according to the mythology's setting and the archetype of "Hero" can shift back and forth between Chaos, the Imperium, and all the other factions. But how can someone EVER claim that the Warp/Chaos can apply to what is "Good?" Within the setting, this point of view can vary, but from the perspective of the real world (you, me, everyone) Chaos represents what is blatently evil.

The Warp is anathema to matter. It corrupts the flesh, it destroys, *****, brings about mutation, madness, death, suffering, fanged beasts, eternal torment, vile perversions, selfish decadence. The Warp is space hell. It is the darkest of all evils in the 40k universe. There are only various degrees of evil one can select in 40k (and even lower depths in Black Crusade).

Animus said:

Yes, those are the negative sides to emotion - which is all that the Chaos Gods are, literal incarnations of emotion. Unless you assume that all emotion is inherently evil, this means that the Chaos Gods aren't inherently evil, they just gain strength through going to the extremes of emotion, which is what your list is. That doesn't mean that a follower of a Chaos God is forced to go down that route, it's just that many people, in the 41st millennium as they do now, opt to take the easiest route, whether that means losing yourself and your soul or not.

Not this debate again, Most followers of chaos are bad, Chaos in general is bad but they are embody good things (Hope, martial pride,honor, etc) So yeah there are probably followers who try to live up to the good aspects of Chaos and or turn to chaos to achieve a legitmately good goal, they are just vastly out number by the more evil followers. That's one of the points of this game so that you don't automatically have to play an evil character even though you have fallen to the dark gods.

Chaos has a moral code, it's just not the same as a "imperal" moral code.

Black crusade also has the best "fun police" of any game yet. The chaos gods them selves!

Amongst my circle of friends, there's sort of a cold war going on about super-evil characters; most of us have deep experience with supremely demented characters, either our own or someone elses', many of which who have gone beyond the limits of good taste in the past... so there's a treaty for the Dark Heresy GM to not push the PCs into a situation they cannot escape from without gassing orphans or whatever, because I told him I promise I can disturb him more than he can disturb me.

I dislike conjuring the necessary bitterness to play an evil character, these days, but the only two archetypes that really speak to me is The Magneto (Seriously, I saw X-men First Class and was definitely not going into it looking for 40k tie ins, but it heavily reminded me of the story of a psyker becoming sanctioned and going to chaos, and his helmet even resembles a librarian's hood in form and function) and of course, an utterly decadent chaotic who practices slave trading, but try as I might, I can't bring my current chaos char to do so -- just feels too painfully hypocritical to oppose the Imperium but to have slaves of your own.

Deinos said:

Oh, but hypocrisy is rife in 40k. It's just not 40k if you're not being at least a tiny bit hypocritical about your actions. To rage about the hypocrisy of the Imperium while using similar methods to bring it down is entirely appropriate.

Well, I try to limit my number of depressing characters to 1 at a time.

MILLANDSON said:

I don't want to say that emotions are all bad but chaos is a path of no return. There are probably some examples of last minute redemption but usually once you take a step down the chaos road your soul is toast.

i want to play a Luna Wolf taht sold in soul to have a chance at getting back at Abaddon for slaying is Captain on Istvan.

He never sided with the traitor willingly only to be able to try and assassinate Horus and Abaddon. Durring the siege on Terra, the Imperator teleported besides him and back handed him with such force it left him inconscious. The Imperator said "Your path will lead the to the Eye of the Vortex. Your crusade shall be our downfall. You will become he who you hate."