Hi all,

I have a few questions about Tunnel Fighter and quests Offering to Hekarti and Ancient Debts Repaid:

1. If I play Tunnel Fighter in Empire Deck and sacrifice 3 developments does it mean that his cost will still be zero (even considering loyalty costs)?

2. There was a mention of a combo Ancient Debts Repaid and Tunnel Fighter in one of the decks, which made me wonder: If Tunnel Fighter is placed in play by sacrificing 3 developments and all three of them were units, does an Ancient Debts Repaid really get 3 tokens on it?

3. And similar question: If opposing side has an Offering to Hekarti in play, does that quest also get 3 tokens because of those 3 developments/units leaving the board?

I was hoping Entropy would take this, since I'm not perfectly sure, but I'll give it a shot:

1) The FAQ states: "Any reference to cost in a card effect always references the top left number printed on the card." and "When a card is played for “no cost” then the cost is considered to be 0, and cannot be modified by other variables (such as loyalty)." Since Tunnel Fighter says you lower the cost to 0, and not that you can play it for no cost, you still have to consider loyalty and pay for it if you don't have enough.

2) & 3) Yes. There's a difference between "leaving play" or "being destroyed" and "entering the discard pile". When a card leaves play, it does so as whatever type it currently is. When it enters the discard pile, it does so as it's "real" type, what's printed on the card. So if you place a unit facedown as a development, and it is destroyed, it triggers "after/when a unit enters your discard pile" effects, but it would not trigger "when a unit leaves play" effects, like Dwarf Ranger's.

All those answers look correct to me.

Cost is particularly confusing, since the original rulebook says

"A card?s cost is determined by adding the card?s printed cost (the numerical value in the upper left hand corner of the card) and its loyalty cost (the number of loyalty icons under the printed cost minus the number of matching race symbols the player controls in play)"

Which, alone, would make you think that cost included loyalty, and "printed cost" does not. They had to adjust that definition in the FAQ to prevent lots of the cards from breaking (like Dwarf Cannon Crew).

Hmmm. did not know that they changed the definition of cost vs printed cost.

I'm not sure, what do you mean by breaking? After all, FAQ 1.5 itself gives Dwarf Cannon Crew as an example: "For example: Dwarf Cannon Crew (CS 8) reads “Forced: When this unit enters play, search the top five cards of your deck for a support card with cost 2 or lower. You may put that card into this zone. Then, shuffle your deck.” This effect means that regardless of loyalty, as long as the support card has a cost (number in the top left corner) of 2 or lower, then it can be put into the zone (as long as it follows any other restrictions on the card)."

This means that FFG claims that any support card with cost 2 (printed cost 2 in the left corner,e.g. Church of Sigmar) can be played with Dwarf Cannon Crew) regardless of loyalty.

About questions 2&3: I would argue that since there is no unit that was " in play" , neither quest is triggered. The reason is that both of the quests say "unit enter/put discard pile from play ." Which assumes that it was "in play" to get somewhere from it.

So what happens, as I now think, is that development leaves play, but after that it becomes a unit and unit enters the discard pile. So since no unit was in play, that unit can't be considered entering discard pile from the play. And though, neither card says " unit leaves play" , these cards still assume that there was no unit "in play" to get anywhere from the play .

On the other hand, there is a card "Alluring Chosen" which clearly says "enters discard pile" without mentioning "from play" and is probably supposed to work in a way we discuss right now.

Another case in point is "Great Book of Grudges," which says "enters discard pile from play," which further signifies that the creators of all those cards assumed equal meanings for phrases "leaves play" (in case of leaving play into the discard pile) and "enters/is put into discard pile from play."

BBSB12 said:

Yes, thats why I chose that specific card. I'm saying that they had to put that ruling in the FAQ because according to the original rules, you would need to find a support card of cost 2 or lower including loyalty . After the ruling, you can just ignore the loyalty cost. To make this card work as intended under the original rules, they would have to errata it to say "... for a support card with printed cost 2 or lower..." Rather than do that, they just changed the definition of cost.

BBSB12 said:

The card is considered to be in play even while its a development. See the rules for something like Rip Dere Heads Off. When the development is flipped, it is not considered to have entered play.

Alluring Chosen and other cards that don't specify "from play" are worded that way to give a benefit to mill decks. Most cards with that type of wording are DE.

I don't understand your point about Great Book of Grudges. "leaves play" is used instead of "enters discard" for cases where you want the effect to trigger even if the card is returned to hand, or when you want the type to matter. i.e. The card 'leaves play' as a development, and 'enters discard' as its true type.

I understand the overall argument that you are making, but from all the rulings I've talked to Lukas about I've never seen him support that interpretation of the "unit enters discard pile from play" phrase. Basically, you can read that phrase as "if a card enters the discard pile from play and that card is a unit, do X"

Anyone allready sent the question to the developers? I think BBSB12 has it right, but it could go both ways and makes a real difference in the possibilities with these cards