Base psy rating: 3

Child of the Warp: +1
Push: +5

750 out of 100 starting XP: +1 PR

Effective starting psyker push level: PR 10.

And yes, its risky. Was reduced to 0 wounds the first time I tried it, but whatever, for the dark gods.

Want to get warp lock soon though may have to wait.

Aah much was learned about psychic power, cant believe I missed that max psy rating is corruption bonus + willpower bonus, shame on me.

Still the last character to receive the Warptime must have been dangerous since its automatically 2 rolls on the psychic phenomena with +55 to the roll.

The favoured by the warp talent doesnt really resolve the thing about Pushing mentioning that you need to roll twice on 6-1 depending on what kind of psyker you are (either Im missing something or its not in that table at all).

Even though the psyker is useful, so are the other humans but they still all die if hit by anything that threatens the CSM. It still strikes me as a bad idea mixing the 2 "races" unless the players enjoy the GM throwing the fights in weird ways.

Nothing I have seen in a book has made me think a regular heretic would be stomped in any fight that a CSM would find challenging, so I don't get why people keep on insisiting that's the case.

Ryder said:

Well if you want to threaten the CSM you have to have weapons with either high pen.+felling or capable of doing around 20 or more damage per hit. If you pile on nothing but high pen. weapons and felling then the CSM will probably feel targeted and that he gains nothing from being a CSM. If you use the high damage weapons the humans will be killed in 1-2 hits since they have less wounds and less armor+toughness (probably around 6 or more).

If you dont do either of these then the CSM will walk all over the fights unless you make specialised fights where the tough opponents target the CSM which will feel like the GM is throwing the fights (or would to me at least).

If you Humans are slugging from behind cover and the CSm is charging then all is well and balanced.

sorry you keep saying the same argument over and over but from the example you give, you use lame tactics.

Yes given a strait corridor CSM wil die much less faster then humans because it is the SM job to take and hold breach,s wall and all those suicide mission humans cannot do, humans should be abel to stealth, fit in small spaces, etc that you can' really do at 7' wearing a Power armor.

I still think it's play stile here, how many other scifi games have you played before FFS 40K line? It's always the issue with guns and armors they scale up super fast. Look at WoC SW Saga, they could not even balance the guns correctly either, Jedi where killing you twice over before you could even shoot them... at that point wath we figured is you can do lots of dmg mitigation with cover, just plain hold line of sight, smoke grenades, etc.

Use tactics on your players, overwatch, suppressing fire, etc and see how standard combat dynamic are thrown out the windows. When even you CSM is hugging cover and everyone is: "okay 1 round to tough on the charge in the open beforewe make contact!, can you guys do it?"

Then your players will try to deceive, lure, ambush you... this is where this game gets really cool and violent!

Whats stopping the CSM from taking cover as well ? Then he becomes nigh invulnerable and a CSM is probably only going to want to charge ahead if he is actually built for melee. Ofcourse players should take cover but you dont always pick your firefights yourself, sometimes you are ambushed or caught in the open or the cover gets destroyed really fast.

If you advance down a corridor in a space ship, where are your people going to use stealth ? there might not be anywhere to hide and even if there is his stealth is blown pretty quickly after he attacks (which ofcourse is fine if he kills the baddie).

Accuse me of using lame tactics all you want, but if there is cover in every single fight and the ranged focused CSM charges ahead despite him being useless in melee, it just sounds a little unrealistic.

Space Marines don't normally use cover, it's why the game Space Marine had an ad that said "Cover is for the weak" If a CSM has firearms they should be standing up pouring fire into the enemy in a normal situation or at least should be one of the first ones out of cover. If you are in a firefight and you have a CSM in your party and the Apostate is the one the enemy focuses on then Someone is not doing their job properly.

Crate brings up a good point. Why would you ever fight fair, as a CSM or not?

Just because a CSM can better survive suicidal behavior such as charging into the enemy gunners on overwatch, doesn't mean he has to play this way.

If I were to be a player in BC (I'm always the GM for some reason...), I would not hesitate to play a CSM. Yes, the human heretics do start with more skills and double the starting XP, but that initial difference will become greatly reduced as time goes on. And as far as I can see, most of the options for character advancement are open to both CSM and human, meaning humans will be hard pressed to overcome the unnatural attributes and combat talents of the marines even over time.

I would take a CSM Sorceror, have his starting powers include Telekinetic Shield, and his initial wargear purchases be a jump pack, and a Hellhammer Lascannon with the Long Recharge downgrade. For starting skills I would get stealth and the Operate (Aeronautica) skill. I couldn't find anything in BC restricting space marines in power armor from using stealth, but if it does become a problem I would ask to switch out my regular power armor with scout armor, which should not restrict sneaking and shouldn't require an acquisition test unless the GM is being a bastard. Early game acquisitions would be cameleoline + red dot laser sight, and long term would be acquiring a twin-linked lascannon.

After that, I would play him as a super-heavy sniper. Exfiltrating whenever necessary, and using the jump pack during combat or when stealth was not a factor. The combination of power armor, unnatural toughness, cover and TK shield should make me very difficult to kill, and with the mobility to keep most enemies at arms length, in the optimal range of my lascannon. The turns spent recharging the cannon would be spent repositioning or performing a full round aim action as the situation allowed. Doombolt or boltgun/pistol for use against targets not requiring the cannon, and force sword for close-in defense.

In any combat that goes against the group, I'd be able to provide cover fire and still scuttle or jet off without ever taking too much risk.

A similar thing can be achieved by a human sniper with a good Accurate weapon, who would probably be a bit more sneaky but severely lacking survivability and raw, vehicle destroying firepower.

Best of all, this character can be developed in any direction I wish. I can emphasize psychic powers, either to support the las cannon/mobile infantry play style or just be a psyker powerhouse in his own right. Forcesword + psychic powers makes for a potent melee option, should I desire it or the game require it. And obviously, ranged combat just doesn't get much better then running around with a lascannon. Socially or skillwise, I'm free to develop whatever areas I deem important or interesting, knowing that my combat killing power is fairly close to optimized.

Well the CSM that stays behind cover will probably last very long, then again if he took the true grith damage he is going to be night impossible to kill indeed, alto not very useful and may actually be dumped by is party for being useless as all of is skill are aimed at keeping him alive?

Your players should send out disposable scouts? in a corridor how to get cover? have that CSM with a power fist or is unnatural might open an new hallway or a door...

Well stealthy in a plai corridor may be hard, kill the light from a distance, bursth soem steam and plasma pipes up the corridor and side passage and voila...

make a noise of sexy time, lure guard away from their own cover,(actually using humans skills like deceive, etc.

Maybe?

P.S. Hey m8te by the way I used to think like you in another SCIFI game, I hate the game but then I had a vision and wipped my party... then I told them if you bother reading hte rules for once you see that you guys can do all that plus you have rerolls.

crisaron said:

All sounds like very good ideas.

But nothing about the CSM stops him from using those same tactics and become even harder to kill and thats the issue I have (also, spending the points to buy True Grit and ducking down behind cover hardly counts as "spending all your points to stay alive").

Its not how to make a CSM and human work together, its the fact that the CSM is just plain better at basically everything. All the disadvantages we have listed are all fluff related that cant be found anywhere in the rules and is very much up to interpretation (like why cant you stealth as a space marine ?, why not stay behind cover as a space marine ?). The issue is that outside a limited area of social skills (and I will admit starting psykers) the CSM are just outright better than the humans and personally I dont like when I have 2 choices but one of them is just better.

Well in SW saga Jedi wehre OP. Yet my players decided on a max number of jedi in the game, not to make it lame.

It's still a matter of taste too.

You want to have a "harder" time at it but be able to eventually dish out armies at your enemy? Apostle! It's going to be a challenge, you may feel shadowed by the big CSM, but man won't they look stupid when you manage to buy for free (definitively cheaper since you actually skills) that bolter they [CSM] are drulling over?

Same reason you would play a hobbit thief, because you wanted to hang aroudn disguised as a kid pick pocketing and begging for food, then putting on your fine cloths and asking the rest of the groop to pay for your meals... lord it was fun!

I think it's the only one in the FFS that allows you to create a blind CSM, yes a BLIND CSM. "Charge that way! No the other way! 5 degree more, wait,nooo, noo, ah never mind".

Crate said:

Big taget - easier to hit. Damaging said target - now that's different....

They will get targetted first though. There is something about a big brutal nasty spiky scary bellowing dangerous foe that draws the eye and the mind. Many a battle revolves around the percieved biggest threat, not the real threat. E.g. the mounted knight, or the tiger tank rather than the longbow men or dug in 88's that are the real threat. The experienced will spot and prioritize approprately, but the inexperienced masses will become fixated on the blatantly obvious threat, not the real one. It's a natural and ingrained primal headbutting neandethal style repsonse. And many have realized the true threat far too late.

It's what MMO 'tanks' rely on in pvp - in your face distraction from the nuking wizard - and it works. It's also a great tactic for re-enactment/larp fights - yes you normally 'die' if you are the 'mad nuttter charging in', but it can turn the fight as the rest of your lot gut the fixated fools.

Good old caveman psychology.

Stuntie said:

The first part of this is incorrect. CSMs do not count as hulking, and are thus not more difficult to hit for enemies. This is due to the Black Carapace they use.

Also, as elite forces, I think most Marines of any variety know and value cover. Khornate Berzerkers are a minority, and/or have a very low life expectancy.

Bladehate said:

But the big agile guy in power armor screaming blood for the blood god, charging through cover (tactical advance), blood foaming at the mouth, spikes and pet hell hound screaming your name

IS WAY MORE OBVIOUS then

this small guy with (trait unremarkable) running in the fleeing crowd.

Now I know the guy running about in the crowd is trying to flank my NPC with is grenades and what not.

Bot realisticly everyone, except maybe the most hardened/jaded fighters would look at the khorne berzerker and go suppressing fire take him down for Emperor sake !HHHH

UNtil someone with knowledge (war/tactics, with a good alertness or scrutiny) realises that this guy is actually runnning towards us and as two grenades in is hands!!!! Then you need a (Command (change target) because he is way more dangerous then the 10' guy because he as grenades...)

And I even outlined above a way to play an incredible damage dealing CSM while still playing very defensively, and with great versatility.

Not every CSM has to play a Khornate Berzerker. The CSM with a lascannon or a reaper auto-cannon, staying in cover and playing smart is way more dangerous in my opinion. And ridiculously hard to kill.

The Average foe isn't aware that Space Marines are just as hard to hit as the cultist next to him, all they know is that CSM is freaking huge and is likely welding the biggest weapon. If the CSM has a freaking Lascannon that's going to draw even more attention to him, because you got a mountain of a man wielding an anti-tank weapon.

Renegade and Heretek both have pretty decent starting armor that is only a few points shy of starting Legion Power Armor (Heck with the proper starting build the Heretek might start with armor that is slightly better than the starting power armor) and Apostates don't exactly start with the best weapons or armor so they shouldn't be the center of attention in combat, at the very least their minion(s) should be drawing fire away from them. BC Humans for the most part are not pushovers. So this is not like Deathwatch Space marines allied with Dark Heresy Humans.

CSM are survivable. That's their "thang." They also have cheap, easily available, high quality gear. If you want to play a CSM survivably, that's great. They are good right out of the box, and supposed to be.

On the other hand, lets face it, psykers are the most powerful thing in 40k, in general (GET OUT OF HERE VINDICARE), and human psykers start with a 4 point lead in terms of max psy rating when pushing, and CSM sorcs can't start with warptime at all, though they do start with sweet force weapons. They will also wind up with 2 points higher when pushing, which isn't all that much but is a subtle distinction --and it means a psyker's warptime will still, in the end, give 2 points more of Unnat Agi, WS, and BS -- and I daresay that makes up for the slight advantage of Unnat Str, and probably equals Unnat Tou. Ironically, I wouldn't advocate an unbound psyker ever going Tzeentch, ever.

Tzeentchian willpower-focused renegades are also insanely helpful to have around. Corpus Conversion + Tzeentchian fatepoint use + Gift of Tzeentch + etcetera can further boost buffing powers into lightspeed. In addition, HUMAN SACRIFICE (oh noes) can be used to completely ignore the downside of unbound psykers, by keeping you save from the perils.

So yes, if you're playing a CSM, you're tough and survivable. Enjoy it. That's why you picked a CSM sorc instead of a human psyker! If you picked a non-psy using archetype, either human or CSM, you're not going for MAAAAAAXIMUM POWER to begin with, so there's no point in fretting.

@Crate

Whats stopping the CSM from taking cover as well ? Then he becomes nigh invulnerable and a CSM is probably only going to want to charge ahead if he is actually built for melee. Ofcourse players should take cover but you dont always pick your firefights yourself, sometimes you are ambushed or caught in the open or the cover gets destroyed really fast.

Firstly, not all cover a human can hide behind is enough cover to hide a hulking guy in power armour with. Secondly, because the CSM doesn't necessarily have to hide. He can afford to draw some fire while moving into a flanking position that denies the enemies their own cover.

If you advance down a corridor in a space ship, where are your people going to use stealth ? there might not be anywhere to hide and even if there is his stealth is blown pretty quickly after he attacks (which ofcourse is fine if he kills the baddie).

Ask your CSM friend to take his power-fist to a wall, then crawl along in the next Jefferies-tubes. When your Auspex tells you you're next to the gun emplacement, open the nearby hatch and lob over a couple of frag grenades while the enemy is busy shooting the screaming madman charging at them.

Of course, this all depends on how much detail the GM uses when describing the places you move through, but in general, very few realistic combat environments consist of a large featureless plain.

Cifer said:

This is alot of workarounds that still doesnt change the fact that a CSM is just a better character (unless you play the psyker at which point its probably a wash) at basically everything in the game, nothing prohibits a CSM from taking cover (it might not cover quite as much though) or from stealthing or pouring points into social skills and disguising himself.

The thing about their durability is just the thing that stands out the most, the issue is that a CSM is just better. End of story. Its all left up to the GM to make sure he isnt stealing the stage all the time and thats just asking for trouble by leaving it all up to the GM (IMO).

+5 wounds, Unnatural Strength(4), Unnatural Toughness(4), +5 to all stats (except the main stat), a lot of different resistances or immunities. Its just too much for 500xp when there isnt any real disadvantages (they arent hulking due to Black Carapace) and when they take off their power armor they can disguise themselves enough that they can go a lot of places without too much hassle (I agree they cant expect to go everywhere).

Its up to the GM and the player with the CSM to limit the character so they dont outshine everyone else, thats just a mess. Everyone wants a situation where their character can be the best and shine, with a CSM in the party he will be that guy very often.

This is alot of workarounds that still doesnt change the fact that a CSM is just a better character (unless you play the psyker at which point its probably a wash) at basically everything in the game, nothing prohibits a CSM from taking cover (it might not cover quite as much though) or from stealthing or pouring points into social skills and disguising himself.

Stealth capabilities can only be accomplished outside Power Armour, because there's really nothing stealthy about a half-ton of metal (sorry, ceramite) clanking through a base, not fitting into any crannies and nooks. At that point, a large part of the Marine's bonuses are already gone.
As for social capabilities... I disagree. As long as the CSM doesn't go all the way and presents himself as a loyalist (which draws a lot of attention on its own), he's going to have massive social difficulties. There may be worlds where 7 feet tall giants are human norm, but that's the only place where they are accepted. I don't think the Imperium is in any way cosmopolitan, nor does it have particularly cosmopolitan places. There is no space tourism save for the uppermost layer of society. And on any world that is a large economic hub, the outsiders will generally keep to their own quarters.

Also, there's another problem: Chaos Space Marines are a known quantity, humans are not. If an Inquisitorial inquiry turns up evidence that some Joe Average who looked a little funny made a few heretical speeches and shot some people... big deal, chuck it into the bin with the others and get some lowly acolytes to sort things out when there's nothing more pressing to deal with - or just leave it to the locals. If, on the other hand side, a Chaos Space Marine is identified, that's when I'd expect an Inquisitor to pull out all the stops, call on his colleagues or summon the Astartes.
A heretic cell that uses CSMs as seldom as possible can stay under the radar a lot longer than one that flaunts them.

As for the "workarounds", I consider them the hallmarks of a realistic world. If big, strong and obvious was always better and always won its wars, I'm sure quite a few things in the last decades of our world would have gone quite differently.

Cifer said:

Reply is in the quote, supposed to be in bold but that can be a little hard to see.

To all who say that a 7 feet tall giant is going to draw attention: please, stop it.

First, as someone already pointed out, after a while human characters are probably going to draw just as much attention, due to tentacles, flaming skulls, bestial visages and whatnot.

Second, yes, in imperial space, a chaos space marines draws attention. Too bad the default setting of the game isn't Imperial Space. In case you haven't noticed, the default setting is the Screaming Vortex, a place where the Dark Gods reign supreme. In fact, in a place like that, most of the time a Chaos Space Marine is going to get MORE respect and authority than a mere human heretic, (for the fact that he is a friggin' Chaos Space Marine!), thus facilitating social interactions.

Yes, the GM can choose to move the setting to imperial space, and that could present difficulties for the average CSM. However, If he does that, it's either for a small part of the campaign, or else it isn't a standard Black Crusade Campaign and Chaos Space Marines weren't probably meant for that (after all, there's only one legion that operates undercover in Imperial space as standard procedure, and even then they usually employ human cultists as proxies).

The same way that a Dark Heresy GM might move the setting to a Feral World inhabited exclusively by barbaric Chaos worshippers: you can bet that tech-priests and ministorum characters will have huge problems interacting socially with the locals of said planet. Yet, no one complains for that fact, because if that happens it's either a brief interlude in a standard Dark Heresy campaign, or it's a very nonstandard campaign for which characters like that were never meant.

The power level seems to be, from strongest to weakest:

1. Unbound Psykers

2. Bound Psykers (CSM sorcs and wp-based renegades of Tzeentch)

3. Non-psyker CSM

4. Non-psyker humans

CSM are only really overpowered if you consider being #3 instead of #4 on the totem pole to be a big deal. Just let em enjoy the +4 unnat tou, +5 wounds, and so on. They paid for it.

By the time the Cultists start developing gifts that would attract attention they are going to have the skills and equipment to stand a much better chance of surviving fights with legion level stuff, The CSM is going to be a Giant in big scary armor from the start, so yeah the start the CSM is going to draw more attention.

Ryder said:

You mean more respect?

Since he will deal mostly with other renegades and Chaos worshippers in the Screaming Vortex...