Rather than hijacking the other thread where its being hinted at/discussed I thought I would make a new one.

How do you guys (who have already played games) stop the CSM from dominating the game ? In my eyes they have so many advantages and the few disadvantages they have rely on the GMs call such as "well you're a CSM, you cant infiltrate society very well" which seems farfetched at times since even a 7 foot man can disguise himself (he obviously takes off the power armor).

So rather than calling me a noob and saying its an RPG and its not meant to be balanced, tell me how your group made sure the CSM didnt steal the campaign and how did you make sure that the humans weren't insta-killed in combat ?

Because the CSM in my game not only acknowledged that the humans were better than him in several areas, and so useful to keep around, but also realised that they had to feel like equals if they weren't just going to leave, or kill him in his sleep (one of them was stealthy enough to do it), so he treated them as equals in their endeavours, because splitting power evenly between 4 people was better than no one getting any.

Generally, it helps to have players who like to work cooperatively - playing a CSM that wants everyone to do what they want is perfectly doable and fits with the setting, same as a Rogue Trader who lords it over everyone else and makes orders all the time is - however, for most people playing the subordinates, that's not fun, so you bring in things, just as in Rogue Trader, where the other players are needed by the one who is technically in charge, and are powerful in their own right, so that it is more of a "first among equals" thing, rather than the CSM ordering people around all the time.

Also - you think a seven foot man, in a setting (in the Imperium, at least) where being a mutant, or being anything other than a "normal" human, is despised and hated, is going to be fine?

He'd be better off just painting his armour in the style of a loyal Chapter and pretending to be a loyalist, at least then he wouldn't be getting shot at by Imperials whilst being obvious.

MILLANDSON said:

Its a galaxy of millions of worlds including feral worlds where people are tall and bulky (and capable of being 7 foot tall). If the world in question has a lot of visitors and a busy spaceport then I wouldnt expect the CSM (in disguise, without power armor) to have any serious issues. Sure if its a shrine world then he is probably in trouble.

I think one of the issue may be player attitude there? The humans players have access to more skill but are weaker. I don't think it's bad, the human players just have to be extra careful.

If you played other open system this happens all the time, yet it's the players choice to not take this skill versus that one. An example is Alpha Omega, another RPG where players have a totally opened system, even mutation, I think savage world is close to that too.

So at the start you can have this super tough guy that no one can hurt but with no skills. It's the players choice and yes maybe it won't work but it's a players choice too...

in the end maybe you should tell your players that they should try to work their pc together more? Anyway for us it was one of the ways to circumvent those power gap. an example the next session I got killed so i did not feel like having another "killer toon" so I did a scientist with 0 combat abitlity for kicks. (Okay maybe comabt where freaking boring, but still I had to find my shining moment)...

I haven't player a DnD stile game in years where players have the samed XP or the same pwer level. It's not an issue, it's about lpayers making the best of it.

But then again it's a gaming stile not everyone likes.

Crate said:

Its a galaxy of millions of worlds including feral worlds where people are tall and bulky (and capable of being 7 foot tall). And other are 4' because of super gravity, etc but by standards human don't tolarate differences in 40k canon. Any modificatio is sub-human, ogryn, etc.

Well no one is 7-8 feet tall normally, spitting acid, with a reinforced carapace skin armor (the balck carapace), with a head the size or a 20 pound ham, muscle way over the normal proportions... In all the literature SM are obvious at first glance even in robes... I mean it could happen but you should not make it a normal thing especially in a proaganda/paranoide imperial world. Again that is canon...

MILLANDSON said:

I meant more as a GM, I dont doubt our players could make the characters work together fine, its more the issue of feeling like an inferior member of a group (if you are human). Unless "todays" session focuses solely on your area of expertise (and it cant be combat since a CSM clearly shines here) the CSM will be better at everything else basically.

crisaron said:

borithan said:

Legion was about Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion has infiltration specialists that wear terminator armor. They don't count toward the standard.

I don't think that the perceived weakness of CSMs not blending in with normal humans is all that relevant in the Screaming Vortex (the provided setting) where CSMs are uncommon but certainly not rare. It's only if you go beyond the Vortex and into Imperial space that this 'weakness' might really come up, but then you probably have all sorts of mutations and such on your humans too, so I still don't think of it as mattering much - the 7'6" hulking brute doesn't really attract any more atention than the guys with tentacles, no faces, or flaming skulls.

HappyDaze said:

Exactly! It doesn't take many play-sessions before the humans start mutating, what with all their wicked ways. And the humans aren't all that weak tbh. A Renegade starts with carapace armour and can choose a plasmagun as his starting weapon. A plasmagun! Throw in their many combat skills and talents, these guys are quite deadly. And that's without any spendage of starting xp, or without buying extra gear. Don't even get me started on the Heretek, or the Psyker for that matter. Heretical Psykers are so much more deadly than their imperial counterparts.

An unarmoured CSM will not be instantly recognizable as such to a typical Imperial citizen. "Heavys"- muscle-grafted, steroid-manipulated bruisers from the "Adversaries" section in the Dark Heresy Rulebook - are routinely close to 7' tall; and on more "cosmopolitan" worlds with lots of off-world traffic, our own modern 6" average height would hardly be an absolute. Add to that the fact that less than 1% of Imperial citizens have ever set eyes on a Space Marine, let alone a Traitor Marine- and I doubt an unarmoured CSM in bulky robes would attract much attention- at worst he would stand out as an obvious off-worlder.

More to the point, a CSM who tries to Decieve an NPC and fails does not face instantaneous death , as does a Mortal character who fails to avoid an attack from a CSM-scaled adversary (i.e. one that can overcome a 20 point damage soak) in combat. That's the real issue here- how do you run combat in this game so that it is fun for all the players involved? I'd like to hear some specific examples of combat play from people who have actually run games. Do you include both high and low -powered adversaries in each encounter, and have the high powered ones exclusively fight the party's CSMs, treating the Mortal PCs as invisible if there are no CSMs within clear attack range? Do your players like that, or does it start to seem cheesy and contrived after a few combats? -Or do you just scale encounters to the CSMs, and assume that all the Mortal PCs know to run and hide every time combat breaks out? Do your players actually enjoy that?

Yes, Mortal characters are clearly more versatile than CSMs, and I'm sure that, in time, they will eventually become powerful beings in their own right, possibly even surpassing the front-loaded CSMs, but I know that I wouldn't enjoy playing a starting character who has no chance of surviving a typical combat session. Is there some trick to compensate for that attitude, or are players who don't want their Mortal characters to be required to flee every combat s.o.l.?

I don't want to come across as completely negative. I'm a big fan of the WH40KRP line, and I hope that Black Crusade works well. I just have serious concerns, based on what I've seen, that it has some major flaws in the area of combat, and I haven't read anything here (yet) that convinces me otherwise. Please prove me wrong.

The other possibility is that some combat encounters can be made at the human level. Sure, the CSMs might find them "too easy" but the action economy of the game means that they can't really accomplish everything before the humans have a chance to participate. In such fights it works out best to put something a little tougher in to attract the CSMs so they get some accomplishment too, but it isn't always necessary - sometimes it's OK to let the players play to their characters' strengths.

I agree that you should let players play to their characters strengths (otherwise there is no reason to make different characters), but the thing about combat, is that you either make it human level, and the CSM will walk all over it or you start adding alot of high pen. weapons with the Felling trait as well (thus removing much of the idea behind being a CSM which is no fun either) OR you add really powerful weapons and you will challenge CSM but utterly destroy any human hit with those weapons.

I agree that as you level up the difference are going to be reduced more and more, but for a group starting out the difference is just huge.

Im sorry, I just dont see it working well with humans and CSM together, unless your group is fine with the CSM handling the combat OR the GM totally throwing the fights in an unrealistic manner, and the humans only really shining when it comes to the social skills.

Crate said:

OR you create mixed encounters with Hordes/Elites for CSMs to deal with and single Troops or low-end Elites for the Disciples.

Saibot said:

But what happens if the CSM is not melee focused ? why would the Elites focus on him (like mentioned in the other thread) knowing that he can take A LOT more punishment instead of just wiping away those (much easier to kill) humans and their nasty plasmaguns first ?

Thats what I meant byt the GM throwing the fight in an unrealistic manner.

The average person or thing is going to attack the giant in giant spikey armor welding the giant weapon that's much easier to hit than the nimble little cultist. CSM are in general suppose to be the tanks for a Mixed group.

Ryder said:

Uhm why are the CSM easier to hit ?

They possess Black Carapace (which I cant find other mention of other than under Power armor, not sure if its a type of power armor or a trait) which specifically says that it does not increase their size, so they are not even Hulking and people dont get +10% to hit, and they dont suffer any penalty to agility based tests for dodge, as far as Im aware.

If the average person is piling up on the giant plate wearing maniac (who isnt easier to hit) then the average person is an idiot. This is not D&D where the enemy is penalised for not attacking the tank, if the GM lets most of the enemies attack the CSM without any obvious reason other than not wanting to kinta-gib the humans then he might as well be throwing crooked dice. If I see 1 CSM and 3 cultists and all 4 are carrying plasmaguns (or equal) then Im gonna kill the easy to wound and kill humans first and worry about the tough nut last.

A human psyker starts with 4 points of psy rating higher than a CSM sorcerer, for purposes of Push actions, and only the highest psy rating you can obtain matters for purposes of buff effects. A CSM sorcerer can't even start with Warptime; so a human psyker can start with a push rating of freakin 10', thereby starting with Unnatural WS, Unnatural BS, and Agility 10, and then 9, 8, and 7 for his allies. That's FREAKING HUGE. That's way more critical than the mainly defensive bonuses a CSM gets, which are still good.

My psyker has a nice multilazor which, whenever hitting, automatically hits all 5 times (due to warptime) and due to mighty shot deals 2d10+17 damage per hit, and we're still on our first compact. Its true, there's rarely a reason to target the CSM first -- but Warptime or Combat Formation ensures the party will pretty much always go first, and not much can handle all those multilasor shots, let alone the CSM's ferocious charging, which does gather a massive amount of attention. Not saying NPCs will always attack "the tank" but hard to ignore a giant metal guy screaming towards you on a jetpack chopping up your buddies despite the guys in the distance shooting at you.

It does add an element of risk to be so much more vulnerable than him, but so far its all been fine.

In general CSM are either charging like a madman, obiviously the leader, wading into the thick of combat, or wielding a heavy amount of fire-power, which would gain a hell of a lot of attention. True a Pysker would probably gain a lot of attention but that's part of the point, pyskers are glass cannons at first. Renegades start with pretty good armor and weapons, as does the Heretek, and the Apostates are more motivational people than frontline troops. In general I think most renegades could survive an encounters with a space marine that a space marine wouldn't find boring, provided the space marine is doing his job.

I have to agree that given two opponents that are equal in offensive capability (both using high-powered weapons) but unequal in defense (CSM in PA vs human in carapace), I'm going to try to drop the 'light' target first. This might mean that human PCs would do well to not attract as much attention in heavy firefights unless they are prepared to play with the big boys. It's not fair, but it really doesn't need to be.

@HappyDaze

It's only if you go beyond the Vortex and into Imperial space that this 'weakness' might really come up, but then you probably have all sorts of mutations and such on your humans too, so I still don't think of it as mattering much - the 7'6" hulking brute doesn't really attract any more atention than the guys with tentacles, no faces, or flaming skulls.

From what I've read so far, it seems that characters willing to remain humanlooking will generally have the chance to do that by picking less-than-obvious mutations. This isn't DH where you roll once and then groan as your character concept just got eviscerated.

Cifer said:

Sometimes you do, and sometimes you do not. It depends on whether your mutation came as a price for failure. There are also rules in the Gamemaster Kit for extended campaigns that can help here too. Still, quite a few Chaos-aligned humans are going to be quite distinct from your typical Imperial human.

Deinos said:

How are you giving the allies Unnatural BS and Agility 7,8,9 since it has a range of Self ?

Also, by pushing you are always getting a roll on the psychic Phenomena table. What kind of psyker gets 2 rolls on the table when pushing though ? that doesnt seem to be clear from the 6-1 table.

Further also: How are you getting that high Psy rating at start ? you can not have a higher psy rating than your Corruption bonus (aside from the automatic psy rating you get from your archtype).

Crate said:

By usign Profane Symbols rule (page 208)

Crate said:

Favoured by the warp talent I guess...

Crate said:

Corruption bonus + Wilpower bonus (page 130)