(3.27) Unique Cards and Changing Control

Uncle Joker said:

1. Your scenario itself can't happen, as you cannot have a unique character in your dead pile AND in play. If it's in your dead pile, you cannot play or put one into play.
2. See 1
3. See 1
4. I have not encountered this situation, but I would assume the following (and here's my reasoning): the Shadows ruling states "However, the card immediately attaches to its copy as a duplicate", which would happen *before* you'd have a chance to trigger any response. At that point, the card would be a duplicate, and would lack any text (couldn't trigger off itself). However, a card would still have come out of shadows, so a second card triggering off a card coming out of shadows would still be able to respond to the unique character coming out of shadows.

-Istaril said:

Do you know a card named Visenya's Hill?

Type:Location
Expansion set: Secrets and Spies
Affiliations(s): Targaryen
Trait(s): King's Landing
Text:
King's Landing Any Phase: Kneel Visenya's Hill to choose 1 character card in any discard pile,and move that card to its owner's dead pile.

Here is another card.

Name:Aegon's Hill
Type:Location
Expansion set: The Tower of the Hand
Affiliations(s): Targaryen
Trait(s): King's Landing
Text:
King's Landing Challenges: Kneel Aegon's Hill to look at an opponent's hand. You may choose one character card in that hand and place it in its owner's dead pile.

-Istaril said:

Except that it *can* happen.

Scenario 1: You have a copy of Fat Bob in play and another one in your hand. Your opponent triggers Aegon's Hill and places the copy from your hand in your dead pile.

Scenario 2: You have a copy of Fat Bob in play and another one in your discard pile. Your opponent triggers Visenya's Hill and moves the copy in your discard pile to your dead pile.

@Uncle Joker, I think these questions have been answered before. I'm not 100% sure right now and don't really have time to check, but I think the answer to questions 1-3 is "No".

Question (4): Yes, you can trigger "after a card comes out of Shadows"-effects when the duplicate of a card already in play comes out of Shadows.

I'd completely forgotten about them... my apologies.

However, I'm fairly certain that the wording means that the answer to all three questions is "no"

(3.27) Unique Cards and Changing Control

You may not play, put into play, or take control
of a unique card already in play that you own
or control (except for putting a duplicate on
a card that you own and control), or that is in
your dead pile.


Because the section "Except for putting a duplicate on a card that you own or control" is separate from "in your dead pile". If it was an exception to entire statement, it should be at the end. The current wording allows you to put a duplicate on a character you own and control if it is already in play, but not if there is one in your dead pile.

That said, it's only semantics - I don't know if there's any previous ruling/precedent the community goes by on this issue.

Uncle Joker said:

1. No

2. Yes. See the very passage you quoted ("...except for putting a duplicate on a card..."). Playing a duplicate is not that same as playing a copy of the character (the rules tell us a duplicate has no title).

3. I would think the same logic as in #2 applies here.

4. I would think so. A duplicate is still a card, isn't it?

There are a number of ways for a copy of a unique card to get into the dead pile while another copy is still in play. The important thing to keep in mind is that this is only possible when the copy hits the dead pile while another copy is in play. That doesn't do anything to the copy that is already in play. But once a copy is in the dead pile, that's it. You cannot play or put into play other copies of that unique card. So while the situation is possible, it is rare and can only be achieved in a particular order.

Uncle Joker said:

1. You cannot play or take control of a copy of a unique you already have in play (except for duplicates), and
2. You cannot play or take control of a copy of a unique you already have in your dead pile.

The omission of the duplicate exception from the "dead pile" restriction means that having a copy in the dead pile shuts down all duplication privileges for that card, even in the situation where you still have a legal copy in play.

Saturnine said:

(Before anyone asks, NOTE that a copy of Drogon in your dead pile will not stop the Black Hatchling from attaching to a copy of Drogon in play as a dupe because you are duping with a card that is not a copy of the card in the dead pile.)

Just to reiterate, because it may have gotten lost in the discussion, the answers to the original questions are:

1. No
2. No
3. No
4. No for the card that actually becomes the dupe, Yes for other cards that Respond to a card coming out of Shadows

ktom said:

Oh. Ok. Apologies to Uncle Joker for giving wrong answers.

Thank you guys. All of you.

I'm glad to see I understood the semantics of the rules correctly here.

An entirely valid question, though, sorry again I assumed it was a beginner mistake with uniques!

Just one more question along similar lines:

If I take control of a unique character with Fury of the Stag (or any control effect of limited duration) and my opponent has another copy of that character in his dead pile, do the rules prevent him from "taking control" of his own character again at the end of the phase? Do I get to keep control of the character permanently?

schrecklich said:

Yes, it stops him from playing his own "take control" effect on the character. No, it does not prevent your effect from expiring at the end of its set duration. This is because when your "take control" effect ends, he is not actually taking control of the character. It is simply (and passively) returning to its natural, unmodified state.

Consider the effects that say "character's STR cannot be lowered." This prevents -X STR modifiers from being added. It does not prevent +X STR modifiers from wearing off. Same general idea here.