We finished our first campaign on Friday and are about to start our second one.

However, this time, we want to change a few things and ideally we would do this before we start.

Below is a list of the PROPOSED changes. Some are my idea, some are from other forum people. Some I havent yet decided what I am going to change it to, I just know it needs to change.

And before this thread descends into another flame war, I'm not saying you shouldnt post here if you disagree with something individually, but I dont want this thread to turn into another argument of "this is broken", "no its not", "oh yes it is", "he's behind you", etc.

There are lots of people who dont want to make changes - thats ok - whatever suits them. This thread is for the people who want to make changes, and to discuss what those changes should be. Opinions on all the below welcome

Skills

1. Rapid Fire
Change to only use once per main attack (i.e once on advance / guard, twice on a battle action)
- To bring in-line with the other cards which allow more attacks, and to stop the broken combo with gauntlets

2. Spiritwalker
Using the ability costs 1 fatigue.
- Even with the 5 space reduction, it is still one of the best skills out there. What reinforced this for me is having suffered it in our first campaign, when it came out as one of the skills of choice in our second campaign, the players chose it automatically - the other skills were good, but this one stands above the rest, and I think it will always be. I think Descent should be a bit more about choice, rather than "I've been lucky enough to draw this card, so I will take it because it is far better than the others"

3. Leadership
Use of the ability on the card costs 2 fatigue.
- Again, just a little rebalancing as the skill is very good.

4. Mata and Kata
Allow them to pick up coin piles.
- With the loss of potions in dungeon levels, this makes these guys pretty useless. Even with this change, they are still pretty rubbish but I cant think what else to do.

5. Telekenesis
Possible changes:
a) Not affect named monsters
b) Cost more fatigue for larger monsters
c) Need LOS (so cant bring people out of trees)
- I've not suffered this yet, but from what I read, it is even worse than Spiritwalker!

6. Unmovable
Costs 1 fatigue to use
- Just a bit too good.

Treachery Cards

1. Lone Golem
Changes possible to this card:
a) Change it to 1 treachery (Am convinced this was a misprint)
b) Change it to 1 Master & 1 Normal Golem
- Golems are pretty pathetic in general, and not much use in RtL.

2. Lone Troll
Change to 2 treachery
- Apparently, Trolls are a bit too good. Not sure about this one - based on others comments

3. Crushing Blow
OMG - This is one of the most broken cards in the game. Possible changes
a) Increase cost to 2 treachery
b) Only use 1 of the 2 cards provided (i.e you cant have 2 of them in your deck)
c) Have the item "damaged" and not destroyed, so the party have to go back to town to get it repaired
d) Something else

4. Poltergeist
Not sure about this card, but apparently it is a bit broken. I've not used it and wouldnt know how to change it apart from increasing the treachery cost to 2.

Other

1. Secret Training
This now gives a counter which adds 2 wounds and 1 fatigue. The normal counters (+4 wounds OR +2 fatigue) are unavailable
- Someone elses idea which I really like. Apparently, too much fatigue at silver / gold is way too good for the heroes

2. Humanoid Melee Monsters.
Possible changes
a) Increase their armour by +1 per campaign level beyond copper (i.e. +1 armor for Silver Humanoids, +2 for Gold and +3 for Diamond).
- At Silver and Gold level, the complete lack of speed and range for humanoids means they are sitting ducks.
b) Increase damage for the 4 space melee monsters by 1 per campaign level. (Trolls, Ogres, Giants)
- These ideas completely stolen from someone else

3. Leaders
All named monsters that receive an HP and armor bonus multiply that bonus by 2 at Silver level and 3 at Gold level. Thus, the Master Beastman with +8 wounds and +1 armor is actually (+16, +2) at Silver and (+24, +3) at Gold.
- Not sure about this. I like the idea, stole it from someone else, but not sure it will be too powerful since I've only played at Copper.

4. 'Other' equipment
Reduce the number of 'Other' items each Hero may equip from 2 to 1. Increase backpack space by 1 for each Hero.
- One of the main reasons the Heroes are so strong in RtL is that, unlike in 'normal' Descent, they are going to get a lot more treasure. What's more, the Other items carry over and retain their usefulness well into the next campaign level. This change reduces the power increase the Heroes can get from their equipment alone, and at the same time mitigates the Overlord's otherwise overpowering need to use Crushing Blow to keep the Heroes' equipment in check.
- Again, stolen the idea but like the reasoning behind it.

5. Using fatigue to move
Heroes cannot use more fatigue to move than their base movement.
- With the maps a lot smaller than vanilla, and the amount of extra fatigue available later in the campaign, heroes can just zip around killing everything easily (apparently)

6. Nanok
Maxiumum armour is equial to 4+Campaign level
- Apparently the character is broken with the right equipment. I've not suffered it yet but other groups seem to have just removed him from the character pool at the start.

7. Global Radius of effect
Reduce all abilities / powers / texts in the game that affect 3 squares to 2. (Command, Divine Retribution, etc)
- To be a bit more in-line with the other ranged things which have been halved for RtL. Maps are so much smaller and everything is so much more bunched together, it makes these things a bit too strong.

8. Staff of the Grave
Change the last line of the ability so that removal of Undying costs 1 (or maybe 2) surges to use.
- The item is by far the best treasure in the deck and needs a slight rebalance.

9. Lawlessness
Change so that it gives the Overlord free threat at the start of a non-Lt encounter (just not sure how many)
- Some people say this card is ok at the start, but in my campaign (and in some others), the heroes actually WANT an encounter, because it is easy XP and treasure. So this card becomes a negative thing. I think it needs to be changed so that it benefits the overlord no matter what the situation.

Well, thats about it for now. More changes I am going to make is to revamp a number of the dungeon levels, rejig the balance in the leaders available to take the bias away from Eldritch, and to add more stuff from AoD and WoD. Possibly also ToI, although I havent bought that yet.

Also, if I have missed something that you think needs changing, please let me know.

The main problem from what I've seen in RtL so far is that it's too hard for the Heroes at the start, and too easy for them later - a flawed progression.

I've written some thoughts on upgrades for specific monsters at silver and beyond, I can share them if you wish: basically, they improve specific critters much like the Mountain Giants or Snipers cards, and are available, for example, from 300 conquest total onwards.

I agree with your humanoids boost, yet still, I am convinced they do not need a boost when they first are upgraded to Silver in early copper level, for then, they're tough enough; I would though balance it with a greater boost later on, such as much-needed speed upgrades for the smaller humanoids, and toughness and hitting power upgrades for the large ones. I'd also consider allowing some lieutenants to reinforce with Humanoids, especially Kratz and the Farrow family - allowing them to call Beastmen and Ferrox would be enough.

What else?

There was a suggestion somewhere on the boards to automatically boost level leaders to the highest upgradeable level once the campaign hits a certain total, to make them remain bosses - once the conquest total hits 150, all leaders are silver, once it hits 250, all are gold and once it is at 450, all are diamond. As compensation, the author gave a slight conquest margin where critters cannot be upgraded beyond the campaign level, somewhere around 50 conquest after the switch from copper to silver and silver to gold, to avoid the especially overpowering silver-to-gold switch with saved up XP once the game turns silver.

"The main problem from what I've seen in RtL so far is that it's too hard for the Heroes at the start, and too easy for them later - a flawed progression."

Yeah. I was also considering a more radical change. Like everything at Copper gets -10% health, everything at Gold gets +1/2/3 armour or something.

"I've written some thoughts on upgrades for specific monsters at silver and beyond, I can share them if you wish: basically, they improve specific critters much like the Mountain Giants or Snipers cards, and are available, for example, from 300 conquest total onwards."

Please share

"There was a suggestion somewhere on the boards to automatically boost level leaders to the highest upgradeable level once the campaign hits a certain total, to make them remain bosses - once the conquest total hits 150, all leaders are silver, once it hits 250, all are gold and once it is at 450, all are diamond. As compensation, the author gave a slight conquest margin where critters cannot be upgraded beyond the campaign level, somewhere around 50 conquest after the switch from copper to silver and silver to gold, to avoid the especially overpowering silver-to-gold switch with saved up XP once the game turns silver."

Yeah, I read that post (and stole some of it). I have to admit, I only half read that section. The exact wording was

"once the total conquest level reaches 100, every leader gets upgraded to silver.
At 275, every dungeon leader gets upgraded to gold. At 450, they are all upgraded to diamond.
OL cannot upgrade any monster to gold before the total conquest level reaches 250. "

I guess I couldnt fully understand it. We are saying that at 100 total conquest, all leaders of all types become silver. If some of them were already silver, nothing happens. So, what this does is to boost the leaders for the types which the OL hasnt upgraded. Is this fair / right? I thought things were already a bit tough in Copper for the heroes.

Thanks for posting your changes, Paul. I was curious what they were.

I'll probably implement some of the rules in my first upcomingcampaign. The Rapid Shot mod and the dungeon Masters upgrade look like good suspects. But don't want to throw too much mod stuff at my heroes before they've had a "control" campaign first.

Paul,

You're not "stealing" anything.. I suppose you realize that and are half kidding. But you made more than one reference to "stealing" people's ideas and I think you're wasting your energy with that thought. People post their ideas and thoughts on these forums for others to discuss and share. I know I come here to view other players' ideas and thoughts with an eye toward learning something I can apply. And Paul, you contribute back enormously with your thoughts and discussion-provoking threads. Thanks guys, for your ideas! Having said this, I should probably offer up a list of changes I have made to RTL. So stay tuned.

I do use 'stealing' in a joking way. In fact, I do so as a sign of respect for those who suggested the rules change because I really like it. I also didnt want to take any credit for other peoples work, so anything which wasnt thought of by me I tried to make clear.

For Lawlessness instead of some amount of threat have it allow you to choose one non treachery event card that you can play. It obviously can not be a power card either, and I would disalow any cards that have a identical treachery card as well. This will give you some flexability in what you do, but not a whole lot. The likely cards are aim, charge and dodge. Just enough to keep the hero's uncertain of what you can do without overballancing anything.

Brian

Paul

Shadowcloak (and thus, Trees), does not block LoS to the figure with Shadowcloak: you might want to simply say "Shadowcloak grants immunity to telekinesis". The way you have it now implies things about Trees and therefore Shadowcloak that are, well, not true.

As for Lawlessness, why not make it the counterpart to the Guide? "When the heroes roll for encounters, you [the overlord] may add or subtract 1 power die to the number they would normally roll." This gives the OL more control over the heroe's fates.

I like Thundercles' Lawlessness idea.

Also, the promised buffs for monsters in late campaigns, to give them more of a bite... (already posted once on the old forums, but.. here you go)

So, what about critter-specific upgrades?

Let's go!

*Beastmen go wild with the new Voracious Horde card! For 8 threat, you can give your furry minions +2 speed for one turn.
Also, the Shadow Step card that works on them and Ferrox reads: "SS: teleport anywhere within 5 squares", which makes for excellent hit-and-run tactics.

*Ferrox cause more nosebleed with the Stalker card - a Ferrox may activate Shadowcloak for 2 Threat per turn. Sneak up on the heroes and bleed them dry!

*Trolls yell "I'm the Juggernaut, *****!" with the new card of the same name. Ironskin for trolls (Or Willpower? Would be fitting too.)

*Kobolds are pesky, and employ Sneaky Tactics - they dodge and can swarm-grapple.
Swarm-Grapple? Here you go: if a character is adjacent to more kobolds than he has dice in his Melee trait, he counts as grappled.
(thus, one kobold can hold old Thorn, while six can drag down a beefed-up Nanok).

*Giants are mighty, and should be more so. Behold the Colossal Lords! When you field a giant you choose whether he is a Frost Giant, a Fire Giant or a Storm... Giant. Frost Gaints place one frost token on every hero in their line of sight at the start of their turn. Fire Giants have Aura equal to campaign level and count as dodging Ranged attacks, while Storm Giants can attack using the Bolt template, and anyone hitting them in melee or with magic suffers 1wound.

*War Stomp: their morbid adiposity, or, more politely, portly build, lends itself to beefy tactics: an Ogre may make a war stomp upon activation, whereupon he may discard one order from one Hero within 4 squares and in his line of sight.

*Deep Elves are Silent Death: this card gives them the option to exchange their Red die for a White one and make Magic attacks if they wish.

*Razorwings need little in the terms of a boost. The "Aerobatics" (lol) card allows them to move two squares similar to a Guard action, during the Hero turn.

*Hell Hounds can be upgraded to Demon Hounds: if you have a Charge card in hand, they can Charge for four threat without you having to play the card. Fetch, buddy!

*Manticores are drug dealers, adding Hallucinogens to their spikes - and inflict Daze.

*Nagas improve upon their sorcerous powers with Serpentis Lore: all critters within 3 squares of them add +1 Armor, and cannot be webbed or stunned. A naga may also Transfix one hero in its line of sight: unless that Hero rolls a blank, he may not spend fatigue next turn.

*Blood Apes are up to serious monkey business with Guerilla Tactics (Gorilla Tactics?): they can place guard orders.

*The Dragon, the ultimate challenge, should be more of one at the higher levels. Their Legacy of Fire allows Gold and Diamond dragons to absorb more damage by treating the Power enhancement sides of the power dice as blanks; also, a dragon may designate one item held by each hero as unusable at the start of his turn - that item's powers are suppressed until the dragon's next turn.

*The Skeleton needs little improvement: they can entice normal skeletons to Join Me in Death and rise up: a skeleton may instead of attacking pay 3 Threat and spawn one more skeleton next to it.

*The Sorcerer is the master of Dire Channeling: all surges spent in attacks against a Sorcerer award the OL one threat each.

*The Dark Priest is steeped in Unholy Lore: he may grant his Dark Prayer ability to an adjacent creature.

*The Golem was often overlooked, but no more! Made of Runic Steel, he is tougher than ever: for every non-town item a Hero who attacks him holds the Golem gains +1 armor. Also, a Golem may attach a Trap card to his attack, as if his target triggered it. Pay the threat cost normally, surges on the Golem's attack may be substituted for threat.

*Chaos Beasts bring joy to cthulhu fans, and you may begin chanting Hastur, Hastur, for with Seeds of Evil, tentacled goodness will hit the board more often! For 8 threat, the OL may switch adjacent monsters occupying 4+ squares for a Chaos beast as their frail bodies burst open and tentacles come forth! Also, if more than a half of the squares were occupied by master monsters, the Chaos beast will be a master. Japanese school girls beware.

*Demons are Eternal Evil: they exert any weapon used to attack them, and gain SSS: take one card from the discard pile and put it into the OL's hand.

Others have said enough about surge-driven abilities, but I add: leave the basic capabilities as they are. Monsters on silver and higher may gain access to surge-powered boosts for extra statur effects and extra damage.

At higher levels (gold and diamond critters):
Giants can gain SS: Daze.
Ogres can gain SS: Stun.
Golems can gain SS: Curse (ouch?)
Razorwings SS: Bleed.
Demons? SS: Web would be tough, but fitting for dark magics.
Dragons? SS: Knockback is to be expected as heroes stagger back from the dragonfire unleashed.
Trolls spend their surges on killing anyway.
Chaos Beasts? SS: if this attack kills a Hero, place a normal Chaos Beast in his place if able, a Beastman otherwise.
Diamond Skellies could inflict 1 square of knockback
Diamond Sorcerers gain SS: if this attack kills a Hero, you may activate him unless he rolls a blank and attack once as if using Dark Charm before he dies.
Diamond Kobolds (Masters) split into two normal ones when slain.

well.

Lengthy. But, may hold something of use.

Xandria:

Amazing list. I would love to incorporate it in my many campaign changes. Ok with you?

Soon I will post a loooong list of changes I propose to introduce in my next campaign.

Anybody got usefull web space where I could usefully upload it to?

Its a somewhat formatted document file with currently more than 35 pages of changes.

RustyDust said:

Everybody chorus: Boardgamegeek .

Hm. Has anybody thought of www.boardgamegeek.com ?

Xandria,

Your monster buff/upgrades are spectacular! Of course I have my usual lame question.. You referred to them as "cards". Are they literally Overlord cards that you created to add to the overlord deck? Or is this just something that you apply in addition to the overlord deck? If the former, I was just wondering about the issue of threat paid to use them, which you did specify in a couple of instances. Basically, I was just wondering how you use this system, personally, presuming that you do.. I would like to use it, if I can convince the people I play with. Not only does everything make eminently good sense, but these additional effects also deliver a huge "surge" of just plain fun. Just some great stuff! Thanks so much! You certainly are a multi-talented person!

Well, treat them like OverLord upgrades (Acidic Poison, Snipers) - you buy it, and it adds abilities to critters. For convenience, you can print them out, even in Word, who cares.

They are not cards for the deck, though some of them cost Threat to activate. I have not thought of specific costs in Conquest points, but as they are meant to come in late in the game, and many of them just add flavor to a single type of critter, I'd make them cost 3-5 for most of them, with some being more expensive - for example the Dragon or Demon upgrade (especially considering they affect an avatar)

Xandria said:

How about a variable cost. If the upgrade does not affect your avatar make the cost 3, or 5 for the tier 4 monsters. Have the cost be 10 for the same upgrades if it does effect your avatar. That way for the most part they don't cost much, but if you happen to have an avatar that matches you can still get it but it will be more expensive.

Sorry to bring people back to my initial post, and I do like the idea of the changes suggested, but does anyone have any other comments on my other long list of tweaks I would like to propose? Thanks all.

I guess all I can really add at this point is that I'm sad that it seems RtL was broken when it came out of FFG's door. Of course Kevin can release a FAQ that will "fix" some of these problems (and last I heard, he is actually working on something to this effect), but it doesn't take away the fact that a lot of people perceive the game to be broken. It's like a bugged release.

The base game was a little like this too.

So was Arkham Horror (the pacing and the peace and quiet after sealing a few gates).

And many others.

To fix humanoids, the changes you suggest are nice, also, you might want to increase the speed of some gold and diamond humanoids.

The Nanok change is OK, making him still good, but not broken.

As for the Command and Divine Retribution changes, methinks it is still more important to house-rule Telekinesis.

Also, I'd suggest playing copper level with random treachery (meaning, the OL draws 2x the number of treachery cards from the relevant deck, and may buy from those using his treachery; separating the treachery according to color and cost is necessary, throw in the cost 3 cards with the cost 2 ones) to make it a bit easier.

The Dungeon layout sheets by Bleached Lizard make a good tool for the OL to choose more suitable minions; they also slightly increase the amount of critters the OL gets in silver and gold.

Lawlessness I would change so that the OL can choose to either ADD or REMOVE one encounter die; alternatively, make it so that he gets 0-2 extra Tier 1 critters in every encounter (blank: 0, Power: 1, Surge: 2)

To make effing Mata and Kata useful, you might let them also TAKE items from characters, an unique capability noone else has.

I'd suggest >scaling< Telekinesis, making it grow weaker, like: Copper: works on anything. Silver: Not on named, Gold: any critter larger than 1 costs 2 Fatigue to move.

You might want to nerf Kirga's ability, perhaps by making it cost 1 Fatigue to activate for one turn.

Weakening a hero ability (Telekinesis) as the campaign progresses goes against all other hero improvements: it seems to be too powerful a nerf to me. I would suggest making "unstoppable" monsters immune to this skill and having it cost 1 fatigue per creature space: that way, the Beastman Lord can avoid it entirely and it's far too big a resource sink to affect the Titan and Great Wyrm. Making Named monsters immune to telekinesis shifts the balance too far the other way: maybe have Telekinesis cost +1 fatigue for named monsters?

As for Xandria's Mata and Kata change, I like it, although taking items should only be available with willing players, to avoid possible jerk usage of the little ferrets.

Yup, to take stuff with Mata and Kata the target has to be willing.

Thundercles' Telekinesis alternative would also work, yes.

*bump*. Last chance for people to comment on the changes proposed as we are starting our new campaign in 2 days time.

Would really like to know peoples opinion on some of the suggestions. Thanks for your time

We're using almost all your suggestion, and they works great.

We skipped: Crushing Blow modification, Secret Training (because of the lack of +2/+1 tokens , we changed that you can only train Wounds or Fatigue for each CL, not both), Other Equipment (we're good with 2), Global Radius Effect (we're keeping the 3 radius).

DuskDweller said:

Cool - you're using them even before I do!

As for the secret training, if my players agree with that change, I will be photoshopping some +2/+1 counters.

As for your other change, I'm a bit confused - you said you have changed that you can only train for wounds OR fatigue, not both. This is actually as per the rules. Each CL, each hero can train for either +4 wounds OR +2 fatigue.

Odd that you are not modifying Crushing Blow. If the OL is a real man (or woman), they should take advantage of this and buy it asap and use it all the time. Then maybe the players will want it changed

Many of the changes you list were my suggestions, so naturally I mostly think they're good.

Personally, I use Randomized treachery all the time, which gets around the problem of any one treachery card being way too good.

The more that I've been thinking on it, the more I think that telekinesis needs either a HUGE nerf (something to the effect of "it doesn't affect monsters AT ALL - only Heroes) or simply to take it out of the game. I just really, really dislike the tactical effect it has on the game at the moment. My reasoning is that as far as I can tell, it pretty much takes all the tactical skill out of the game for the Overlord. Without it, there are definitely "right" and "wrong" ways for the Overlord to position his forces - and the strategic difference between the right and wrong way can be huge. But since with telekinesis, the heroes can move their own pieces OR their opponent's for the SAME PRICE (one fatigue), the Overlord's "right" move is really just a couple of fatigue away from his "wrong" move. Basically, with telekinesis in the game, the best the Overlord can hope for by carefully considering his monster placement is to shave a couple points of fatigue off the Heroes. In my view, having complex decisions devolve into a marginal optimisation problem is something to be avoided.

I think the changes to some of the skills such as Leadership and Spiritwalker are a bit too fiddly. With nearly infinite detail present in the game already, I think it's almost more of an "irritant" to charge fatigue to use those skills. Just one more thing to have to remember, and I'm not sure the payoff justifies that, relatively speaking. Rapid Fire, of course that has to be downgraded. The people I play with are all in agreement to make it the equivalent of a Quick Casting or Cleaving, Ranged style.

I did have an idea for Mata and Kata, and it pertains to Crushing Blow. By the way, I thought Crushing Blow merely caused an item to be "discarded"....meaning back into the appropriate deck, right? I don't read that as meaning the same as "destroyed". Maybe I've been misinterpreting that, but I thought items that had been Crushing Blowed (sorry) just went back into their decks, and didn't leave the campaign altogether. But let's say they did leave the game altogether, as a house rule (or maybe just an actual rule), Mata or Kata could be given the job of picking the item up (where it dropped), carrying it back to the portal entrance (familiars can't go to Tamalir) and (theoretically) handing it off at that point to someone/something that would transport it back for repair, where it could be back in its appropriate deck next game week, for resale. That would restore a sense of self esteem to these poor varmints, and maybe head off a substance abuse problem down the road, while giving the skill card some value instead of making it something to sneer and make faces at.

Also, we have been playing Telekinesis as requiring, for example, four fatigue to move a four-space monster, etc. And it doesn't work at all on named monsters.

Regarding the Leaderships, Spiritwalkers, Telekinesis of the world, I think it should simply become an Overlord priority to raze the city where they are trained, ASAP. Obsidian Shackles can take out Olmric's Hut, after silver level is reached. If you can't abide certain skills, then try to race the heroes to their respective cities and remove them, where possible, but don't change the cards in too many instances as it becomes overdone. That's all I have for now. Enjoy your new campaign tomorrow!