H.B.M.C. said:

Same with me, no problems at all.

Have not got the book yet and have not done mixed group yet so I won't go into that discussion now.

The last 5 years or so I discovered that those long tidious "chip away" battles doesn't entertain anyone in our gaming group. I think that insight come with D&D 3.0 where at some point everyone had over 100Hp and impossible AC. The fights took forever.

I found that fights become quite long in DH too. Toughness, Armour, Plenty of wounds, Lasweapons didn't do enough damage. So we tried some changes like removing Toughness soak, upgrading weapons and seriously reducing starting wounds.

For me it sounds like the True Grit talent will become something that has to be houseruled to suit our gamingstyle. We've already talked about the problem with Space marines and their unnatural Toughness. Maybe we'll do away with that rule and give them more wounds instead but that leads to more book keeping.

Sorry for going abit of OT, dirifting away there for a moment, but this thread got me thinking about all those tweaks we've done.

I firmly believe that Marines should be superior, but not super-human. I like the fluff books, but even so the actions of Ragnar Blackmane or Sarpedon should be taken with a grain of salt. Nor should they be "setting the standard" for all marines everywhere.

The update to unnatural attributes was long over due, but I still find it necessary to halve the marine boni. And this was something I decided on while still playing DH/RT. Marines should be and are exceptional soldiers, but they should not be mechanically bullet proof or able to punch harder then an autogun, on average. I'm not saying an RPG needs to be balanced like an MMO, but I do find it problematic that the disparity in character types between the game lines is so large. Just because most of the Imperium views the Space Marines as near-mythical demigods of war does not actually mean they are, at least in my point of view. I certainly feel it breaks with the grimdark setting having the marines, especially the PC variety, being so broken in comparison to the rest of the group/humanity.

This new incarnation of True Grit sounds like it will not make the transition along with some of the BC rules updates, and other talent/trait revisions. I mostly bought the BC book for the rules updates, and a look at the level-less advancement system, but not all of the changes are ones I agree with. This change would just make the Explorator in my RT game even more of a beast.

@BladeHate

The problem with this stance is that the Emperor becomes a pretty stupid guy. There are one thousand Chapters with one thousand Marines each, galaxy-wide. That means there's about one Marine per Imperial world. If we assume modern earth to be average for the Imperium's worlds in population and militarization, each world has somewhere about 16+ million soldiers. Further, a Space Marine is crazily expensive in terms of equipment, logistics, training, medical upkeep and the implantation.

This can result in two things: Either the awesome prowess of the Astartes is merely an exaggeration for the sake of Imperial propaganda ("Don't be afraid for His angels of death are watching over us!") and this propaganda is deemed valuable enough to justify the expenses - or that one man among the 16 million actually makes a difference . And you don't make a large enough difference by being a little exceptional.

Cifer said:

I disagree. The Space Marines were designed to fight anywhere and under any conditions. The perfect soldier for a galaxy wide invasion, where strange new battlefields were the order of the day. I think the Emperor designed them with that in mind, and that versatility and flexibility should be their true strength. In my opinion, the Space Marines should be a tactical and strategic asset, carefully marshalled and when used properly...completely devastating. But used incorrectly, they are not so superior to a regular guardsman that their 1 v 1 superiority can swing a battle...ANY battle, in the favor of the Imperium. I believe several of the source books even call them the scalpel of the emperor for that exact reason.

In the 10,000 years since the Great Crusade their role hasn't really changed that much. They are still the elite and the guys you go to when no one else can do the job.

However, the RPG mechanics allow a single PC Marine to be very powerful compared to the rest of the galaxy's population. As I said before, a naked PC marine can, on average, soak lasgun fire. Additionally, he can use his fists and/or combat knife and inflict more damage in melee then the aforementioned lasguns.

I do not consider a setting grimdark (or balanced) when my naked PCs can charge a squad of infantry and fully expect to not only live, but tear them to pieces with their bare hands. Quite possibly even without taking any real damage...

Not even the fluff has the heroes doing something so fundamentally suicidal and getting away with it (at least not that I've read...).

Statistically, if the average space marine was 10% ahead of the average guardsman in all applicable combat stats, they would still be a worth while investment for the imperium. When you start looking at thousands or millions of troops, those kinds of percentages become VERY significant. Especially when you apply combat multipliers like wargear, advanced vehicles for support and superior morale/discipline.

So no, I don't think the Emperor was stupid. I just think the power creep from Deathwatch is out of hand when compared to the other game lines, or even the table top/fluff.

In every 40k roleplay game I've been in, we've used astartes, as is, and although they definitely seem powerful and worthy, they still aren't anywhere near unstoppable or overpowered. I've seen astartes PCs have to be saved by pre-ascension human PCs, and in fact I wound up soloing a daemon prince who the party librarian (who had 13k xp more than me) summoned on accident, and it whooped him in one charge, True Grit aside. They've of course saved us a lot, too.

Also, the notion that its somehow a feat to survive lasguns is... humorous, to say the least. They're weapons that exist mainly to make all other weapons look better, and are essentially the equivalent to old nintendo RPG's wooden swords. I used an inquisitor who used a laspistol to zap acolytes who got sassy. Any opponent armed with SERIOUS weapons will still blow through a CSM in 1 or 2 hits.

I want my las-weapons to be deadly, maybe the least deadly ranged weapon, but deadly nevertheless. Why would it become the most produced weapon otherwise, sure it is cheap and reliable, but so are rocks. It is designed to kill and in our games, a good shot would at least seriously hamper a space marine (out of armour.) No comic relief thank you, by using laspistols as a taser.

I'm not at all into that old RPG advancement... first you fight kobolds armed with daggers and later on you only fight fire giants with +4 two handed swords.

As said before, the rules are already "forgiving" enough with the Toughness, Dodge, Armor and lots of wounds.

Note as well that the changes to Zealous Hatred have an impact on the survivability of CSM's. All NPC's (unless the Gm chooses otherwise) can inflict it, and it specifically states that talents that modify critical damage have no effect on it. Or, if the base attack would have done no damage it still does 1 wound. If I fire enough las-guns at that marine with true grit, he should fall down eventually.

If anything this one change makes CSM's much more vulnerable, as in theory Mr Ganger with a knife can get lucky and actually hurt the CSM, while in DW I don't care how lucky Mr Ganger is, he can do nothing to the marine other than potentially deplete his ammunition...

Now, against naked marines lasguns should be a viable weapon, so I will admit the "Unnatural Toughness" aspect of marines is a bit daft, but in Power Armour lasguns should rarely be a threat (otherwise why bother with the cost of construction over something else?). Certainly there should be weak points where the gun may have a chance, but even then much of the energy would be dissipated before it got to the marine underneath. Minimal damage might build up and interfere with the working of the armour itself, but I certainly wouldn't want to rely on that as a guardsman.

Truthfully my preferred method for creating Space Marines would have been to just start with a much higher base toughness (50/60 odd) and just leave it at that. Also means less reliance on special rules to represent their innate resistance (+10 here, re-roll there). Not so sure about Strength though...

borithan said:

Agreed. Lasguns in sufficient numbers are deadly to a naked Space Marine (though you'll still need to hit him quite a few times usually) but in armor you need A LOT of lasgun fire or some very lucky and precize shots. Simply put, commoners facing Marines should combine fire or use armorpiercing/explosive weaponry like in the fluff. Which is not persay even unbalancing.

Still not sure, so if a horde does a suppressive fire on a CSM and then proceeds to grenade is hidding spot? I still have to do some play testing to see if the ranged combat mechanics can overcome the cumulative powers.

For many games of Scifi with gun, the dmg power creep of ranged weapons is hard to balance.

What happens if that CSM is taken over by leash of submission? Is the party dead?

Bladehate said:

Actually, with those numbers, it's quite the opposite.

According to Lexicanum, Cadia has a populace of 850 000 000, of which 71,75% is under arms. That's roughly 610 000 000 of soldiers, or six hundred and ten times as many as there are loyalist Astartes in the entire galaxy , and that's just on one Fortress World (a pretty hardcore one, but still).

And you expect the Astartes to make a difference with 10% better combat abilities and better equipment? In a world chock-full of enemies capable of taking a lascannon shot in the face and/or slicing through power armour like it's not even there?

Morangias said:

If you had bothered to read my post, you would understand that the Astartes do NOT make a difference with their numbers. They make the difference where it counts: Surgical strikes against enemy hardpoints or command centers, or high risk drops behind enemy lines to silence enemy artillery or cripple supply lines. Scenarios where their individual prowess is magnified and makes a true difference, and which justifies the expense involved in their creation, their training and their equipment. In these situations, their superiority...magnified by warger, tactics and support...can make the critical difference.

What you don't do is treat them like infantry, put them on the line and expect them to make any real difference. Unfortunately, with the current RPG rules, Space Marines can be treated this way and still utterly wipe the floor with entire regiments of enemy infantry. There is a reason why Death Watch had to implement HORDES so that "common" enemies could even have a chance...but even then, a Death Watch Kill-Team can expect to wade hip-deep through bodies to achieve their goals. Magnify that kill-team to a full squad or company, and you can fully expect a Space Marine company to take on 10 or 20 times their own numbers without much of a problem. While that's very heroic and surely the "stuff legends are made of", that should NOT be the baseline performance that should be expected from Marines.

This also ties in with the guy mocking me for bringing up Lasguns. The point is that a lasgun is starting level weapon, and I was comparing it to a NAKED, starting level marine...a character bereft of his wargear and armor. The fact that regular characters can become effectively bullet proof is a problem in and of itself. Space Marines just exaggerate the problem to a new level.

I feel Marines should be superior combatants, but they do not need to be (nor should they be) superhuman. Obviously many of you disagree, and so do the rules. But I think my view of the world better suits a grimdark setting, and also more closely cleaves to the table top and even the fluff books. More importantly, it allows me to have my PCs mix with space marines without feeling utterly inferior or trivial, and ensures that any marine PCs feel superior for fluff reasons like training, discipline and experience rather then quantifiable, insurmountable numbers on their character sheet.

Bladehate said:

This is exactly how the Legions acted when they were created. This is what the Emporer made them for. It was only after the Horus Heresy that the legions were broken up and their combat role changed.

Bladehate said:

This is a different issue all together. If you put a lasgun to an Astartes unarmored temple, or anyone's for that matter, and pull the trigger, you shouldn't be rolling damage. This is where the GM says, you kill them. It's not a matter of taking wounds or saoking damage at that point. The mechanics of wounds doesn't equate to gaping holes in a person, that's what crits are for. The toughness soak and wounds represent ducking, dodging, and generally avoiding getting hit directly, or at the least lessening the blow to some extent. Ultimately it's the GM's call as to where that line between tough and durable and being immune to damge falls. As a GM I'm not going to allow a naked space marine to be immune to las fire if he is standing inches, or feet away from a gruop of guardsman.

Bladehate said:

There seem to be three type of views on Astartes:
1. Big dudes in power armor, marginally better than a human due to equipment.
2. Superhuman/Demigods, superior in every way to mortals.
3. Deathwatch toned them down to keep too many people from whining.

The vast majority fall into category 2.

The official fluff about Space Marines, form GW's website :

...They are the Space Marines, and there are few warriors in the galaxy that can match them.

Through a torturous regimen of organ replacement, genetic modification, psycho-chemical conditioning, and rigorous physical training that would kill a normal human, a Space Marine becomes superhuman. He can fight without sleep or food for weeks. He can digest poisons. He can breathe toxic gases. He can heal from grievous injury.

On top of his impressive physical powers, a Space Marine has access to some of the most devastating weaponry in the Imperium. From orbital strikes to lascannons to the trusty bolter, a single Space Marine can obliterate an entire city block. ...Lastly, the process that made him superhuman also enables a Space Marine to wear his trademark power armor - a suit of ceramite that protects him from many weapons.

...The Space Marines consider themselves particularly blessed because part of the gene-seed embedded in their enhanced bodies is from the Emperor's flesh. They truly are the physical manifestation of his will.

The point is that Space Marines are superhuman.

ItsUncertainWho said:

That's not the impression I got from reading the Horus Heresy fluff novels.

Its true that the Legions compromised a larger percentage of the expeditionary forces, but regular infantry was still very common and necessary. The greater relative availability of the Astartes meant that they did see combat far more often in "traditional" infantry roles. The climactic battles of Space Marine Legion versus Traitor Legion may have been exceptionally brutal, since both sides were fueled by such hatred that they left behind conventional tactics in favor of just getting to grips with their enemy and destroying them.

But even during the Great Crusade, Space Marines excelled at rapid strikes and combined arms ops, rather then just lining up shoulder to shoulder Napoleon-era style. They relied as much or more on their wargear, tactics and support as they did on their personal implants and endurance.

As concerns your wound comments, we are in agreement about naked marines ignoring gunfire being a problem. I just handled it via house rules that also serves to narrow the gap between marine and human a bit. Two birds with one stone, more or less.

A Marine in full power armor, geared for war and working with a unit of his battle brothers is very powerful. And so they should be. What makes them "superhuman" is the combination of all of these factors.

I just have a problem when a squad of naked marines armed only with combat knives can kill a platoon or two of fully kitted enemy soldiers. Which is what Unnatural Attributes and the game mechanics support. Even if the enemy troops are formed into a Horde, the marines are shockingly dangerous to them.

And no, Deathwatch does not "tone down" marines if you compare it to the only other non-fluff source material we have which is the table top strategy game. I haven't played WH40K all that much, but even fully armored marines are not immune to lasgun fire or eldar guardians with shuriken catapults.

From a BL point of view, definitively they are SUPERDUPPER HUMANS too living Saints...

Legends of Space Marine and many other shorts display them any of the None Horus books.

crisaron said:

They are superior humans in the fluff novels.

Not supermen able to take bullets to the bare chest and keep on trucking.

Therein lies the crucial difference that I'm trying to resolve: Keep them viable, but increase the role their gear and tactics play as opposed to just their raw abilities.

Lasguns can be deadly to astartes... fired by hordes. That's entirely the intent behind lasguns, a mass produced, reliable, weapon mainly for killing other humans. It even states that bolters are mainly around for use versus orks, because lasguns just don't cut it against them, and orks aren't normally as tough as astartes.

And I wasn't describing a CSM laughing off a laspistol... I was talking about a little psyker girl getting shot in the unarmored foot and only taking 1 wound.

Of course, there's also overcharge rules, putting on sniper scopes, etc.

But overall, lasguns are mass produced because they're cheap and reliable, but don't expect them to save your life against orks, let alone **** chaos space marines. A big part of the setting is how completely, utterly screwed and betrayed the Imperial Guard are by their superiors, who are given corpse meat to eat and heat lamps to sunburn the enemy into submission. 40k is very much a setting about needing the right tool for the job.

@BladeHate

I just have a problem when a squad of naked marines armed only with combat knives can kill a platoon or two of fully kitted enemy soldiers. Which is what Unnatural Attributes and the game mechanics support. Even if the enemy troops are formed into a Horde, the marines are shockingly dangerous to them.

I wonder where you get that impression from. Two platoons would mean about 80 shots fired per turn, of which about 40 should probably hit. A lasgun does 1D10+3 damage, which becomes 1D10-5 versus Astartes soak. That's 1.5 damage per hit, or 60 points of damage per turn, equalling two dead marines per 6 seconds.

By the way, that's without taking the platoon's heavy weapons into account.

As for the rest... Yes, there certainly are a few situations where you absolutely can't use more numbers. In those cases, +10% Astartes would be useful. But are there enough of those situations to justify the absolute nightmare that are Space Marine logistics?

besides the fact the Imperium spawns en entire galaxy with an untold amount of wars...

A veterant Sm/CSM is a monster to reckon with but like anything else they need foot soldiers, the scouts, the tactical, devastator, etc... to reach that line alive.

And normally they don't just charge a battle line mindless they will use tactics depending on their faith or lack of...

Deinos said:

Ork boyz are exactly as tough as Astartes. Unnatural (2x) in both Deathwatch and Into the Storm.

----

I have to strongly disagree with the notion that a naked Astartes are somehow imbalanced and should suffer further penalty when under lasgun fire. Using FFG RPG game rules an Astartes would have 8-10 TB on average, which leaves room for the 1d10 + 3E damage from a normal lasgun shot to cause harm even before Righteous Fury is considered. A platoon of guardsmen firing on Semi-automatic would get enough shots to almost certainly take down the Space Marine. Overcharge Packs make it even easier.

When placed in a suit of power armor.... well even normal humans are pretty much invulnerable to lasgun fire while wearing standard Power Armor and with a good Toughness score.

The only problem I have with Space Marine power balance is how Black Carapace somehow makes them effectively smaller targets when as I understand it, Carapace only improves their connection with power armor. How that makes it even more natural to move around in there than a hulking creature in the nude escapes me. With the +10 to hit it'd be easier to balance the Space Marine tanking factor with the smaller and more difficult to hit humans.

Otherwise, the GM must houserule that some cover doesn't work for ©SM compared to others. If the Space Marine's size becomes a penalty then a certain balance in combat is achieved where humans should hide behind things whereas the CSM could charge ahead undaunted.

Astartes are definitely not unstoppable. A rank 2 DH IG with an autocannon will probably kill several tacticals before they even get into bolter fire range, and a lot of portrayals of astartes do, in fact, have them be stupid enough to let them be caught in situations like that, and certainly Dawn of War, Space Marine and Ultramarines portrays them as being deeply, profoundly stupid like that.

Black Crusade and Deathwatch portrays them at the perfect power level: they're really powerful and awesome, but still not even close to impervious. One might as well say the imperial guard are OP because at rank 2 they can use autocannons and be invincible to lasgun fire from inside a chimera.

crisaron said:

The main character of pretty much every Black Library novel, Astartes or mortal, is a towering superhuman capable of nigh-impossible feats of heroism. It's called dramatic liscense , and shouldn't be viewed as the minimum power level for a starting RPG character...

Cifer said:

Actually the average dice roll of a d10 is 5.5 if my math is correct (which it might not be). Which means the average lasgun damage will be 8.5, or .5 damage done on average versus a TB 4 marine.

Calculating the number of hits is fairly easy. Assuming no real penalties other then Running target (-20), countered by single shot (+10) and a half action to aim (+10), discounting range and using the 35 BS stat posted for IG in the BC book, it means that two platoons would score 3.5 hits for each squad of 10. That's 28 hits for two platoons of 80 guardsmen total, equalling an average of 14 damage per turn spread across 10 marines.

WIthin 50 meters, the IG should get a +10 bonus for short range, which would increase their hits to 4.5 per squad, meaning 36 hits or 18 damage rather then 14. Assuming AB of 4 on the marines the would at most get 2-3 rounds of this bonus before the marines close.

Depending on how many turns the marines have to charge, and assuming perfectly flat terrain that allows all 80 guardsmen to fire freely, I think its perfectly reasonable to expect the Marines to get into melee range. If the marines managed to close the distance, either with stealth or cover, the numbers change drastically. Once in melee combat, the marines can expect to deal heavy damage before being brought down.

Anyway, the point wasn't so much specifics as to point out that Unnatural Attributes are broken. As multipliers they were broken, but as starting attritubes with values of 4, they are still broken. Their scaling just isn't quite as obscene.

Why only half action aim? Full Action aim. Wait for the Marine to stop in melee combat, begin shooting at point blank with +30 to hit. Only -20 to BS while the first guardsman lives. Marine loses the Run effect when it's his turn again.

BS 35 + 20 (FA) + 30 (PB) = 85.