Just a query on the timing Effect triggers and paying costs with saves.

A card has a cost or discard X to do Y, if i save X via an ability or attachment does the effect resolve or does it fizzle. My group debated and decided that as the card has not been discarded the cost did not resolve so the effect was voided although i thought it was like military claim and saves, ie you have fulfilled the claim but the save has rendered it moot (its not like you save and then have to kill another character) as the effect itself is not cancelled (unless an effect states that it IS cancelled)

We looked in the faq ,which we have improved in understanding for the most part, but couldnt find any passage that gave us a solid yes/no answer (although my shame curtain is waiting to be dropped when some helpful person points me to the exact paragrah that we missed that solves our problems.)

Our specific issue arose with a nights watch deck and yorens task although im a little hazy on the exact set up it was something along the lines of a weird plan involving recruiter for the watch, akitn Stannis and bodyguard, if memory serves the proposed play was to give stannis nights watch trait via the recruiter, then go to discard stannis but use the bodyguard when yorens tak was played. I had to give the player credit for an inventive play (although i personally thought it was...strange to say the least).

Underworld40k said:

The real issue is that you cannot save a card from leaving play if that is part of a cost, because paying the cost is part of the initiation of the effect which does not give you an opportunity to play save/cancel responses. If you could, you'd create a paradox, because if you do not/cannot successfully pay the cost, the effect never initiates in the first place; but if it never initiated, what were you saving the card from?

Ah. That would be where we are going wrong, been running an extra response/cancel window when one wouldn't be created.

Looking at the player action window again i take it that the entirety of the event resolves then there are responses/cancels to the event as a whole and not any individual part of the event?

Underworld40k said:

No, not quite. A save/cancel response interrupts the effect (in step 2) before it resolves (which it does in step 3). But any cancel will cancel the whole effect. The only exception is a "then" effect, which according to the latest FAQ update creates a special opportunity for save/cancel responses (because any "then" effect would occur in step 3).

Underworld40k said:

Not quite. You might want to have a look at FAQ page 15/16 "The Action Window in Detail". There you'll find a detailed explanation of what is part of the initiation of an effect and what's part of the resolution.

Basically it's like this:

In step 1 of the action window, you declare your intent to use an effect, figure out what the costs are, pay the costs and choose the target(s) if applicable. Then, *after* costs are paid and targets chosen, your opponent(s) get the chance to cancel. If a cancel response is played, *all* effects are cancelled. If no cancel response is played, *all* effects resolve.

Even more basically:

1. Effect is initiated. Pay costs. Choose targets.

2. Cancel?

If yes -> 3a. No effects resolve

If no -> 3b. All effects resolve

Note that, wether the effect is canceled or not, all costs *remain* paid.

Example: I play To Be A Dragon. I stand one kneeling character (=cost) and specify which character I want to put into play from my dead pile. You play Paper Shield and cancel the effect. The specified character remains in the dead pile. The character I stood to pay the cost remains standing, though. Side note: Technically, you can choose a standing character to pay the cost of the effect, but then the cost would not have been paid successfully and the effect wouldn't even initiate.

Another example: I play A Game of Cyvasse. The choosing of the characters to be knelt is part of the initiation. The kneeling and returning to hand is part of the resolution. That means that you can see which character I choose to kneel and decide to cancel the effect based on that information. The actual kneeling and returning to hand only occurs if the effect is not cancelled.

Hope that makes it clear somewhat.

Excellent answers as always, cheers for clearing up the confusion

Ratatoskr said:

I just realized that I might've made a mistake there. To get really technical here, the effect of To Be A Dragon doesn't have a target (no word "choose" anywhere), so I don't think you'd have to specify which character you intend to bring back during initiation. You'd just have to verify if there are eligible characters in the dead pile during initiation, but you'd only have to specify which character you want to bring back when the effect resolves. Am I right? Ktom to the rescue!

Ratatoskr said:

Yes, you're right. Having eligible cards in the discard pile is a play restriction added in the FAQ. To Be a Dragon is kind of bad example to use to make a general point since it has a special FAQ ruling.

Also, I am not sure what you mean by "Technically, you can choose a standing character to pay the cost of the effect." Since doing so results in the effect never really initiating, wouldn't it be more correct to say that technically you can't choose a standing character to pay for the cost of the effect?

schrecklich said:

schrecklich said:

You're right, of course. It's just that in my example I say "I play To Be A Dragon. I stand one kneeling character (=cost)", and somebody very nitpicky might point out that the card text doesn't actually require you to stand a kneeling character, just to stand a character. What I meant was just that. The card text doesn't really prevent you from trying to stand a standing character, it's just that if you do, you won't have paid the cost, and the effect....you know what, now that I'm typing this **** up, I don't know what I meant myself anymore. So strike all that, you need to stand a kneeling character if you want the effect to go anywhere, period.

And I agree that To Be A Dragon might not be the best of possible examples generally, but mostly I wanted to get across that any cost remains paid even if the effect is cancelled, and the erratum doesn't really touch that aspect. I wanted to use an effect with a somewhat uncommon cost to illustrate the point. Everybody intuitively understands that any gold paid or any influence knelt is lost even if the effect is cancelled, but many newer players don't see that it's just the same with the To Be events or with Ghaston Grey - those standing characters remain standing, that Noble remains in your hand, even if the effect got cancelled.