Is there a FAQ concerning the warhorse?

It just seems like it is an ultra powerful follower, especially late game.

I just finished a game where there were actually 3 players on the Crown of Command at once.

I thought I actually had a chance, until I realized that someone had a warhorse, and was basically attacking, without rolling, for about 24 strength.

Seemed like it would cheapen the Werewolf and Pit Fiend Encounters, as well, and I was just wondering if there might be a balance issue concerning it.

Thoughts? Anyone?

galladril said:

I read the card text only once and I can be mistaken. It is a powerful Follower, but he grants you to add your Craft value to your Strength, when you resolve a Combat. According to the new rules, the Craft value is your starting Craft. The Wizard will take the most benefit with a +5 (Troll gains only +1), but if you speak about a total of 24, I assume you were adding Strength and Craft totals, Objects included.

It's not the way it works and you should read Monk's Inner Belief Ability and Psionic Blast Spell the same way (Craft value = Starting Craft).

The_Warlock said:

Right after I posted this, I went to the errata 1.3 from BI, and actually looked up the Monk's ability, which, in the errata, stated:

"3.7 - Monk

Q1: The Monk’s Special Ability which allows him to add his Craft to his Strength in Combat seems very powerful. Is this correct? How about a Psionic Blast Spell?

A1: Yes, this is correct. However, the Monk's Special Ability should read 'you may add your Starting Craft to your Strength in Combat. The same applies to a Psionic Blast Spell."

This seems to be what got messed up. Your assumption of "adding Strength and Craft totals, Objects included" was absolutely correct.

Yes, it's still powerful, but not as much as it was this evening. I wish I would have known this going in - I probably would have won the game.

Been playing for 20 years, and I still get confused on the rules, and still have questions. God, I love this game!

Thanks for the ultra fast response.

It IS quite interesting that the Warhorse is more effective for the Wizard than for, say, the Warrior...

galladril said:

It happens to everyone. I haven't played the Reaper expansion yet, but I'm sure the new cards will raise more and more questions.

I like this feature of Talisman; the game keeps changing every time, depending on which cards are drawn, in which order, which Characters are in play, how they're used, the number and the attitude of players. You will always find a weird situation that can't be solved with general rules.

It's impossible to cover every single issue and a support forum and FAQ are most needed with Talisman. On the contrary, some games like Runebound have a really solid game system that generates no bugs, but they're not so unpredictable and funny like Talisman. IMHO

Lubricus said:

Yes, it's really odd, but a Warrior has a greater Strength and can easily increase it.

If you lose a Combat with the Warhorse, you have to discard it. The Warrior is less likely to lose a Combat and he will surely keep it longer than the Wizard. In fact, the Characters that gain the most benefit from the Warhorse are balanced Characters (3/3, 4/3, 3/4).

A question: what about the Monk? Can he add his Craft value twice if he has the Warhorse?

But Warrior can lose a psychic combat fairly easily, given a 4 or 5 Craft Spirit. At least my Warhorse states that you lose it if you lose battle or psychic combat.

Dam said:

Argh, I forgot that. It's quite strange considering the Warhorse doesn't give you any bonus in Psychic Combat... then it is definitely a Follower for balanced Characters, in spite of its name. A Warhorse should be a mount for fighters, not for librarians and scholars, but rules shape it that way.

The Warhorse has never made sense the way it is written. A warhorse is trained for battle, requiring some skill in using such, but having intellectual prowess isn't what's involved. And the whole thing with Craft / Psychic Combat is out in left field. Better to house rule that the Warhorse allows +2 when Attacking but not when being Attacked. If you lose a Physical Combat, lose a life or the Warhorse. That's the way it would really work.

Lubricus said:

I was actually playing the Knight character, which made it to me, fall more in line than the Merchant who was actually using it.

The_Warlock said:

THAT is an interesting question. I guess my answer would be YES, because otherwise, the only bonus a monk would receive from gaining the warhorse would be saving 1 life.

JCHendee said:

I have 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Ed. I remember from 2nd ed, it specifically stated "charging" into combat, and that word alone caused a major problem - i.e. "What is charging, can you charge on board encounters, or when you are attacked," etc.

I would say it needs to be worded as: "Add you starting craft into your strength for any Enemy or Character you attack, but not when being attacked."

The +2 takes the advantage away from persons with higher craft, but at least your way, it is clearly worded.

Warhorse has only come up twice in our games, both times to a strong character, and both times the very next card drawn was a Wraith, which knocked it off.

It's incredibly powerful, but not so much if one's craft is low.

The old BI errata made things balanced nicely. A newer version of the old 4th edition characters revised some of the language (prophetess misprint, dwarf, monk @ +base Craft). When the Revised edition came out, the all-important balancing word "base" was missing from the Monk. He's a 5/3 starting, and becomes 7/5 if he draws Solomon's Crown on turn one. Not a bad character at all.

librarycharlie said:

Huh? FFG uses the term "Craft value" which means the craft listed on the card (aka starting craft). Nothing adds to this AFAIK.

galladril said:

That's exactly my point. Craft has nothing to do with using a warhorse, as I know people who have actually worked with a horse trained for specific purposes. The horse has the skill, not the rider. And yes, it can use those skills without the rider necessarily doing anything. This included one horse who could "track" by sight and distinguish to some degree the different tracks of other horses... amazing stuff to see! And the rider had no tracking skills at all.

The whole adding Craft to combat skills has never made any sense in any part of the game. But either way, there certainly are poorly worded cards being re-inserted into 4th with little to no thought... after confusing (and pointless) terminology changes in the rules. The whole thing with the Monk is another loophole... does it get to add its Craft "Value" twice when it uses the warhorse? This is the never ending problem of such rules and objects and followers with like abilities to those found on character cards. There's just no way the monk would have that much advantage from a mundane object or follower.... and more and more and more house rules get created to "fix" things.

By the by, did the warhouse maintain the same desc. / wording throughout all editions? That would be doubly sad that no one edited it after so many years.

When we used to play 2nd edition many years ago, this card was eventually removed as it was just too powerful

and started too many fights. That was of course when we were adding the total craft onto the strength making a player

almost unbeatable if late in a game. You could have renamed the game Warhorse rather than Talisman as you needed it to win.

I wouldn't get too caught up in the use of Craft value with the Warhorse. Basically, the mechanic behind the Warhorse, Monk and Psionic Blast is that you get to add "a number" to your roll in battle.

You can see the reasoning perhaps of using Craft value for the Monk with the shoehorned-in wording about "inner belief". Psionic Blast is a staple of fantasy gaming using the power of the mind, so that is also a given. The spell and ability could quite easily have been called something else, used another number and had just the same effect.

When the Warhorse was up for discussion, using a fixed amount was suggested, but it was decided to leave it with the same, familiar mechanic as the other two so the benefit of it depended on the Craft value (or starting Craft as it was known at the time!) and it would not just become a big Sword!

If you still have a problem using the Craft aspect, then just consider that fighting whilst riding a horse requires a degree of mental agility or skill and you should be golden!

And no, the Monk cannot use the Warhorse in addition to his ability, much like the Prophetess can't use the Orb of Knowledge cumulatively with her ability of scrying.

talismanisland said:

Is there a FAQ/errata reference for this answer? If the Monk/PB/WH mechanic is "add a certain number", why CAN'T some combination of these three stack? It's not like "the Number 3" gets tired after being added once and needs a rest.

There is currently no FAQ to reference, but there will be in time. And feel free to play these cards however you feel comfortable.

talismanisland said:

When *I'm* the Monk psionically blasting folks from my warhorse, I feel comfortable with my interpretation. But when someone else does it and I'm lagging behind with a third tier character like the Elf, I can't shake some nagging suspicion that maybe Craft value works like mana in M:tG and gets "tapped".

talismanisland said:

Yeah, but he can't use the Psionic Blast too, if you rule like this. There's no other case in the game where a Character cannot use a Spell in the deck (maybe an Elf can't cast Invisibility in the Woods, 'cause he's already able to Evade there?)... what if a Monk with the Wand draws Psionic Blast? Can he cast it for no effect? Or is he stuck forever and ever?

I hope that new FAQ will take into consideration these problems. Monk has been really toned down and that was correct, because adding total Craft was ludicrous (even with exception of Craft granted by objects), but he can't use any Weapons now. No Holy Lance, no Runesword, no Fate Stealer or other interesting Weapons from the Reaper Deck. He definitely should be able to use the Warhorse properly and Psionic Blast in addition to his Inner Belief, for a maximum +9 (a nice situation, but not that likely to happen and that will only last a Combat).

Monk: "Your inner belief allows you to add you Craft value to your Strength during battle.". So, you don't have to use your inner belief and you may cast the Psionic Blast instead.

8janek8 said:

Mmh interesting. Question is answered, but I guess the Prophetess can use the Orb of Knowledge then, instead or her own ability, as she's not obliged to use it. Druid may use the Druid Staff, the Dwarf may use the Gnome, etc.

Words are words, but I prefer general principles that are valid in every situation. 4th edition FAQ was really interesting from this point of view, because it gave answers according to principles, not single answers to single questions. There was a curious principle in that FAQ: "you can't have something you can't use". If I recall correctly, this caused the Troll to drop the Wand if he hadn't the Craft to cast Spells and the Prophetess to ditch or discard (with Special Ability) the Orb and the Wand.

Was it correct? I don't think so, because it generated many weird situations, but it was a general principle that could be applied every time. Same with Spells that can't be cast with no effect.

I hope they keep the same attitude with FFG Talisman.

If you can't use more than one of the monk, psionic blast and warhorse because they all say the same thing, would the same logic stop you using two cards that add 1 to your strength?

Geoff

Cidervampire said:

There is always one person who says something along those lines!

Think of Monk, Psionic Blast and WarHorse like the Wand + The Wizard. His special ability and the wand are the same, but you don't draw two cards.

Cidervampire said:

I don't think that's quite the same really. It would only be the same as using something twice (or three times) such as being able to use the same Sword twice in combat. The thing of using the Monk's "inner belief" with a Warhorse and Psionic Blast together would mean you would have to use your craft value three times.

Anyway, this is all academic as it is purely my opinion. John G has the final say on rulings so we shall have to wait and see what the official line is at some point in the future when the FAQ surfaces.

SubElement said:

This argument doesn't really work. If you are the wizard and have the wand then you can quite easily obey both abilities. If you are the wizard you'll have two spells so that meets his special ability, always have at least two spells. Looking at the wand, always have at least one spell, ok the wizard has two spells so that criteria is met. as well. It clearly wouldn't be logical to read these two abilities and conclude that you always have three spells.

I think we can all agree that having the Unicorn and the Belt will give you +2 to your strength but how is this logic any different from a character with a craft value of 3 having the Warhorse and a Psionic Blast and adding 6?

I'm not saying that this is how I believe things should work, but there is no evidence in the rules or cards to show that you can't add your craft value twice.

Geoff