Cidervampire said:

The general principle that has always been applied is "you can't gain benefits from an Object/Follower that gives you an Ability you already have".

Prophetess/Wizard may draw one Spell when they are short of and the Wand gives the same Ability to the Character. Is not cumulative, it gives you the Ability to immediately draw one Spell when you have no Spells (according to your Craft value). Troll and 4.5 Warrior can use the Wand if they have at least Craft 3.

I can accept that the Monk can't use Psionic Blast. His Inner Belief Ability is basically a permanent Psionic Blast. You can't cumulate this power twice, because it has the same origin (Character's Craft).

What I can't accept is the parification of Warhorse and Psionic Blast/Monk's Ability just because they have the same final result . You add your Craft value because the Warhorse has been designed that way for practical reasons, but it has nothing to do with the psychic/mental power of the Character. The Monk on a Warhorse should gain a bonus, because he's Charging into battle! In addition, he may use his Inner Belief or, in alternative, a Psionic Blast Spell to get rid of it.

I believe the FAQ will still state that the 3 effects are same and not cumulative. It's better that a FAQ gives general advices, not spot rules.

The_Warlock said:

That must be a rule change as I am pretty sure in 2nd edition, using the Wand was an exception to the Craft limit.

i.e. you could have a spell even if you had less than 3 craft.

The_Warlock said:

That must be a rule change as I am pretty sure in 2nd edition, using the Wand was an exception to the Craft limit.

i.e. you could have a spell even if you had less than 3 craft.

I think in the 1st edition the wand gave you an extra spell on top of your maximim number

Geoff

From a balance perspective, putting a warhorse on the monk WITH the bonus is no better than giving it to the Wizard (8 Str / 3 Craft versus 7 Str / 5 Craft). So, no problem there. And the Wizard is likelier to have Psionic Blast, and gets more of a bonus from it.

Generally speaking, this warhorse concern is much more of a concern for the monk, and frankly from a balance perspective, he needs the stacking. Not to mention that it makes Psionic Blast a permanently non-castable spell for the monk otherwise (from the "you can't cast a spell to no effect" rules perspective), making the wand a much, much less useful item for him (and diminishing one of the handful of useful items the monk can use is kind of ridiculous).

From an in-game perspective, there's no reason a monk backed into a bad corner shouldn't be able to channel his inner belief into his feet for a solid kick, whilst at the same time his horse, intuiting from his subtle commands on the rein, throws hooves at the opponent, and the monk uses a single-cast psionic blast scroll that he learned from a traveling mage.

Each ability adds the Craft value separately. The abilities say: Add it. Add it. Add it. That seems to me like an obvious statement of "add it three times," not to mention that there is no contradictory reason given on any of the three cards or in the rules. I don't really understand why anyone's suggesting they don't add, since I've not seen any reason they wouldn't, other than players complaining about it being used against them.

talismanamsilat said:

In the "Monk Ruling" thread,

I've looked and I can't find anywhere where it states starting value for the warhorse/psionic blast/monk. we play adds your craft value, which means to us that anything that adds to your craft (not in psychic combat), as your craft value to us is the same thing as craft. I believe this makes these cards very over powered but the people I play with will not change their minds unless they see something from FFG in a FAQ or an errata. Is there something like this in existence or is this a house rule that people play with?

Thanks

Froman said:

Rulebook page 4 under Strength, last paragraph on page.
Rulebook page 5 under Craft, last paragraph in that section.

Strength/Craft Values = The number printed on the Character Card. That is all the proof you need!!!

Ell.

that's in the main rulebook eh? thanks a bunch!

Froman said:

Yes in the main rulebook bud!

Ell.

You guys have really weird rule interpretations. The difference between the Monk using a Warhorse and the Wizard using a Wand is that the "inner belief" effect is additive . As someone have already said, the Warhorse simply adds a number to the character's combat strength, which happens to be the craft value; it is additive , exactly like it is for the Warrior when he is using two Swords and is adding their effects together mathematically. The Wand and the Wizard's ability don't work that way; the Wand says "you always have at least one spell" and so does the Wizard's ability. They do not work together additively, as when you have two instances of having at least one of something, in this case spells, they do not add up to having at least two of something, as they are not additive effects, and are thus fundamentally different from the Monk's case when he uses Psionic Blast and/or the Warhorse, as those are, as said, effects that simply add a number to a value. I hope I explained myself clearly enough; it makes perfect sense for me, at least.

Actually, I have taken a second look at the Wizard's, Prophetess', etc, ability and I realise that it has extra, clarifying wording, namely: "Whenever you cast your last spell, gain a spell." Because of this, I guess that this ability is also additive, and a Wizard with a Wand would effectively be able to always have two spells, because I expect the different instances of the ability would trigger at the same time. However, there's still a major difference between this scenario (Wizard with Wand) and the Sprite's ability. Since each instance of the "spell-cycling" ability of the Wizard would only trigger when the very last spell he owns is cast, he could get stuck with a single uncastable spell (e.g. Counterspell with no other spellcasters on the board) for a little while, unlike the Sprite, who always has at least two spells. That's at least how I interpret it.

Craft represents a character’s intelligence, wisdom, and
magical ability

As stated in the main rulebook.

The rules assume you are using the warhorse effectivley from your inherent Wisdom and and Intelligence to give you a tactical advantage in Physical combat. It makes sense that it would not help in Psychic combats as horses fear the unnatural and have no supernatural capability themselves. The reason why you dont add your current effective Craft to your strength is purely play balance and too allow the warhorse to privide a bonus without becoming overpowered and stealing the game.

Bear in mind that the lifespan of the warhorse is conditional and can be taken away, so that puts more limits on it's usefulness.

Using logic and common sense think of this bonus from the warhorse as a Tactical Advantage element. Bring in Marvin the Monk and his high sense of self esteem (Inner belief) which would be another seperate advantage element and you have an advantge over someone else who has a warhorse but no inner belief.

Now lets add another advantage element "MAGIC". Whilst tactically using his warhorse in combat with a heightened sense of inner belief Marvin the Monk lashes out with a mental blast of energy to bring low his foe.

The combat system is an abstact representaion of all tactical advantages and disadvantages combined in one pool of "Effectiveness" represented as that bonus to the d6 roll. It is not a RPG game with set round sof combat where PC's are limited in what can be performed in a given amount of time.

So what we have is 3 seperate elements that can influence the outcome of a combat and with that logick all 3 bonuses should apply. If you start taking them away from the monk just because of his character ability then thats unfair to the monk at detracts from it becoming a special ability and becomes a sort of discrimination case in a way.

Yes that means the monk with all stated advantages in play has at least +11 to his d6 roll. So what, it isnt a permanent bonus. That Psionic blast spell has just been cast and will be difficult to come by again. The monk next turn may lose a psychic combat and loses the warhorse, now all he has is his inner beleif and can rely on adding a mere +5 to his d6 roll. Consider the troll has a 6 strength and can use weapons as well. This puts the monks inner beleif into perspective nicely. A monk player with all 3 advantages would undoubtadly use them all at once at an opportune time anyhow, like fighting the sentinel, even then victory is not a garuntee. He only has an advantage of +2. certainly not a gimmee.

Bear in mind that this will have been given due thought in the game development. The monk starts with lower that average stats and cannot have any weapons or armour. This is a fair situation for game balance and keep in mind that it will be quite difficult for the monk player to be able to aquire all 3 benefits at the same time, though a savvy player will certainly try as it will aid immensley and will no doubt be opposed by the other players in classic Talisman backstabbing fashion.

Finding a warhorse uisnt so easy either in that massive mountain of Adventure cards and buying one costs 6G, so again if you do get one then hell yeah get the bonus. You cant just steal it from a player (without magic) as well as it is a follower not an object.

Thank goodness the monk has 5 fate because he will be relying on that far more than hoping to aquire a warhorse and psionic blast spell.

Hope that brings things into perspective. Please be kind to the monk

As for the wizard/wand thing.

You may always have at least 1 Spell if your Craft allows (gain a Spell each time you cast your last Spell).

You dont gaina spell as such but always have a spell available. In the wizrds case he will always have a spell available so the wands criteria is always met. This becomes a useless object for the wizrd ans so he will have to either ditch it or change it into gold at the city or keep it to prevent other players from taking advantage of it. the wand is focused more for (with few exceptions) the other characters with sufficient craft.

But wizards use wands right!!! and this one is just hand candy in all respects. so wouldnt it be awesome if a new expansion came out introducing more types of wands with other effects and advantages.