I'm wanting to create an Imperial Guard Sergeant who was inducted by an Inquisitor. At first he will only have access to the ten-man squad directly under his command. But eventually he will rank up to a Lieutenant and have command of a platoon of 4 squads. I'm planning on using the horde rule from Deathwatch to keep running my squads quick and seamless.

As I've been told, Dark Heresy is rather low-key. I know Rogue Trader is about privateers cruising around in their own ships in pursuit of the almighty Thrones, but would it be reasonable to use it for an Inquisitorial paramilitary campaign?

If you need me to clarify anything feel free to ask. So far my only experience with FFG's games is Deathwatch.

You could use the SYSTEM, the mechanics, from either DH or RT (since they're pretty much the same) for a military campaign, but the games are not designed for it. In particular the character progression system is not designed for it. You could make up a new set of character advancements and everything from scratch but it would be a lot of work.

Good thing I enjoy gaming then.

I think in both Dark Heresy and Rouge Trader, (even in Black Crusade to some extent.) It's something to talk though with the individual GM, since the player having access to large number of mooks. It isn't just about having access to a set of rules to represent a large number of troops.

Firstly there are some games where such really won't be appropriate, if the emphasis is on a game where the players have to masquerade as X for a period of time to discover Y for instance depending on the theme of the game you turning up with 40 trained guardsmen is going to ruin it. In the other extreme I ran a short campaign taking place in a besieged imperial city where I would have looked at that concept and laughed and told you to promote it to a Major, and give me a short background of the style of regiment. (This was only a 5000 exp point game.) You can't really come up with a concept and ask is it appropriate for these rules, before you have a game.

Secondly yes the horde rules for deathwatch are useful, but they are designed to represent a vast but drastically weaker force against a small number of vastly superior opponents. So in other words to be appropriate to be used in Dark Heresy the opponent would have to be capable of killing a few members of the party per hit. Even in RT you aren't meant to be that much better, and these rules create a certain atmosphere the GM probaly doesn't want. Notice that the RT mass battle rules specifically aren't meant to be fought character V horde, because it over states the heroes invulnerability in a way the game doesn't desire. (Also the horde rules are very good for representing your character as the general Haig of the 40K universe, I have a problem I will waste troops at it)

Thirdly your concept is essentially demanding a powerful freebie, something that especially in Dark Heresy is likely to be very imbalanced. IT RT depending on the type of game it might be fine. (Not that games need perfect balance but generally throwing huge bones to 1 player isn't a great idea.) Despite using Deathwatch rules, it's worth pointing out you didn't think of scaling it up to a Commissar or commander equivalent and playing it in a Deathwatch game. Running the character as a ascended guardsman, because then you are the one whose likely to be underpowered despite your waves of men.

More constructively try phrasing it as what you want in terms of game play rather than setting it out in terms of a wish list for men. (Similar to saying I want to play a swordsman rather than I want to play a guy with a power sword.) Because it's a lot easier to write campaigns knowing that Sergeant X, is the type of character who want's to play a commander of men. And means the GM can offer you chances that are far cooler story wise than he has 40 men.

For example: I want to run a game where the players investigate a ruined complex found by the dig (A concept i could run in either system.) But instead of having you beam down with your 40 men I have you go down alone. Then you encounter some creepy being in the complex which you have to fight alone, and is a tough fight (Due to not having 40 men.) However it becomes clear that this monster isn't singular when a group of them attack the camp one night, stranded,your survival depends on how well you can bring these mercenaries and scientists into a cohesive unit and protect the camp from the next attacks, your skills of command and training are key to their survival and success. (In later games I might have you co-ordinating the players actions with the stormtroopers that are supporting you, or seizing control of a nobles guard to help eradicate a cult.) All of these provide a chance to play the commander of men, are more interesting and means the GM can adapt the forces to the type of theme and threat. Rather than have 40 nameless mooks who seem to me to be just a combat edge as they are

Thanks for the feedback McGonigle, but I think you are running with your own notion of what I mean. This is not so I can take on ONE lowly pissant with 10 guardsmen. This is so our group can effectively garrison supply distribution centers to defend against frequent raids by gangs. This is so our group can hold off a wave of heretical followers while we deal with the Apostate leading them. And you are kind of going overboard with your assesment of the strength of the squads...

Rank 1: 10 man guardsmen squad with lasguns

Rank 2: Same as rank 1

Rank 3: Same as rank 1

Rank 4: Promoted to Lieutenant. Commands 2 Squads of 10 Guardsmen with lasguns

Rank 5: Same as rank 4

Rank 6: Same as rank 4

Rank 7: Add 2 more squads for a total of 4

Rank 8: Same as rank 7

Not exactly the picture you were painting. Like bogi_khaosa said, the system as it seems, can be used. That's all I was wondering. The foes of Deathwatch are too potent. Everyone else in the group would be in line with the "power level" this would have. One person would be in command of a STARSHIP. Another would be a powerful Sanctioned Psyker. A third player would probably be an Inquisitor himself, not an Acolyte, a full blown Inquisitor with all the bells and whistles.

Then again I'm sorry. I probably should have spelled out my intentions better. That's my fault. We are wanting to increase the overall scope of the system and we were wondering which system would be best. Deathwatch is a litte TOO much, and it seems that Dark Heresy is a little too low-powered.

Ten Tigers said:

This sounds like an Ascension-level Dark Heresy game. Rank 1 Dark Heresy characters just aren't at this level. Bump them up to Rank 9.

So Ascension is just Rank 9 Dark Heresy then?

Ten Tigers said:

Pretty much, except you are no longer Acolytes serving an Inquisitor, you are an Inquisitor and his personal retinue.

Are you planning on playing with other players, or is this going to be a solo campaign?

If it's the former, I think you are going to have a hard time convincing the other players that you should be allowed to control a whole force, while they only get one character each...

If it's the latter, then either system will work- your GM will just have to create military-specific scenarios. The biggest difference between DH and RT is that in DH you have to keep track of personal wealth and buy each piece of equipment out of your own pocket (with your Inquisitor occasionally handing out some bonus equipment), while in RT , wealth is abstracted to a statistic that you roll against. That sounds more in keeping with a military-themed game, but the tricky part would be adapting the "Profit Factor" rules to military objectives.

In any even, the long-promised Only War supplement for DH - focusing on the Imperail Guard in the WH40KRP verse- will undoubtedly be useful to you in this endeavor, when it eventually gets released.

I was talking about the assumptions in the Deathwatch Horde system, it's fundamentally designed to let space marines blow up lots of mooks. Rouge Trader has a less developed combat system that doesn't have this assumption (page 292.)

The type of game you are talking about where everyone plays some sort of character with a retinue is perfectly viable however, and I don't think you need to scale to ascension level to do it. Although if Dark Heresy fixing the wealth does help. Things to bear in mind, firstly all players should have some form of retinue or authority of some description so the psyker should have some form of impressive status or resource to call on.

Also as my early point, in a game with an Inquisitor and a RT you are really below power level. 40 guardsmen isn't really worth mentioning compared to the support network and political power of the Inquisitor, and the wealth and ship of a rouge trader, both of them could pick up that sort of force effortlessly. Not to mention in that scale of game having a fixed force limits options. Because Lieutenant isn't in the power league, you want to have a rank similar to colonel, major or a senior commissar.

The concept is Imperial guard commander, there probably is a sweet spot where you can do the I have 10 Guardsmen and they increase with number as I level up *(And in this sweet spot it probaly want's to be more narrative based than the I increase my number of troops at these ranks) with me but it's tricky to find equivalents for other careers and it isn't in a game with an Inquisitor and a Rouge Trader.

Take my earlier examples and scale them up, your character is going to be the one who leads any men at hand against the boarding action while the Rouge Trader tries to maneveur the ship away from the Ork Hulk. You are the one who will be orgainising the training of the mining colony to establish a perment defence force. You will be taking effective command of the PDF after the Inquisitor demands the Governor surrender their leadership.

As for ascension being Rank 9 Dark Heresy, the answer is sort of, it's meant to be but Ascension is a more striped down system things get combined into simpler categories. The translation packages are cool, and have some nice ideas in it and some of the ascended talents are fun. HOWEVER personally I find the costing of the ascension level stuff fits terribly with the Dark Heresy level character (For instance Peer talents suddenly start costing 500-700 at Ascension level for no good reason and it's possible to get stupid exp's worth of skills for 500-700 meaning it's very easy to waste alot of DH experience by taking an amazing A level skill over the top.)

if i am not wrong black crusade system as a follower management system.

crisaron said:

I'm not sure it covers having several dozen NPCs all with stats - it's more for dealing with a few henchmen, followers and the like.

MILLANDSON said:

Well it's a main feature fo the Apostle "archtype" so it must be pretty defined, anyway the difference between a follower and your NPC, is the DM or the characters took time to actually create stats for the NPC...

What i am saying is BC system will insure that if a PC decides to go heavy hencmen, he won't overshadow te one that decided X that I want to be a lone gunner... Since the power and size of the henchmen team is based on the level of the follower skill taken, etc.

From what I read it's done pretty complete. there used to be a designer diary about the henchmen.

[extract]

Leadership and Persuasion

The Apostate’s powers, on the other hand, stem not from personal combat ability, but the talents to sway the hearts and minds of the enemy. Apostate is a general term for high-ranking leaders of men who have betrayed the Imperium (or were never a part of it in the first place). Now they lead grand armies (or a warband of their peers, for starters) against Humanity, or corrupt it from within as a rotten core in otherwise whole fruit.

Well yes, but there won't be clearly defined periods of your "army" size increasing, as the OP seems to want. You would have to purchase, with your own XP, each individual NPC follower, which, to me, promotes the idea of using the Follower rules for important followers and people you have with you all/most of the time, rather than as your army, which you would likely be better suited using your Infamy/Acquisitions for, and having them as more of a background/mass combat thing, as in Rogue Trader.