ive been reading alot of the fluff.i have found out that the germans 1st used walkers at the battle of the bulge,winter of 44.

i have not been able to find out what made walkers far better,than tanks.

and tanks should not be completely out of the picture.i could see a platoon of king tigers,and a platoon of ludwigs in a battle.

and why stop at walker,why not some tracked robots.like the tanks in terminator but not.

built on a tiger lower hull.give it quad 88mm,nasty.

the germans had so many designs (x weapons).

James

Good thread. I almost posted a tank thread the other night for the same reason...we need rules for them. I plan on introducing armor into our games.

My initial take on rules would be this:

1) tanks either move or shoot, not both. Compared to a walker, they'd be slow. I suspect that the chief advantages to a walker are speed, size, and the ability to traverse areas a tank couldn't. Which leads me to this possible rule:

2) Strike and fade: Walkers shooting tanks may choose to fire in the first movement and move in the second. (Unless I'm wrong, I think currently that dust units can't move after they've fired)

3) with the advent of the special damage rules, we should be able to determine if damage means a track's blown out or if it's a gun, meaning that a tank may still be able to fire even if it can't move

4) tanks should be much tougher, more heavily armored.

Thoughts?

i cant find any clear reason what makes a walker better.

WWII tanks could not shoot accurately while on the move. To shoot accurately, they had to commit and that made them targets themselves.

A walker, provided it's as fast as I think it's intended to be, would have the advantage of firing and then bugging out before the other tank could shoot back. So shooting and then backing behind a burm or around the corner of a building becomes an advantage. Think in terms of the lighter vehicles of WWII like the Puma or the Greyhound. They are fast w/ decent guns. One hit and they're toast, but you have to hit them first. I see the walkers like that, light, fast, with big guns. And they can fit in narrower spaces, etc.

Another good example is the Stuart or the American M3. I recall reading somewhere that a bunch of them were circling a Tiger, trying to get off shots at it's rear. It couldn't hit them because they were too fast. And when a Sherman showed up to join them, the Tiger's crew surrendered.

ya and i also remember a story of a tiger or a king tiger,sitting in the middle of the road.a group of shermans came around the corner and before they could react, the tiger fired one round that went through the first,second ,and third tank then blowing up in 4th

88 was nasty.

i was thinkin the same thing maybe give them advanced or superior reactive fire since they would seem more defensive then the walkers and maybe make them more powerful but slower like the only way to move them would be a move+move to only move them one spot

Lotus said:

Yes they can, first action shoot, second action move.

Some allied tanks had stabilzers to make them more capable of firing on the move, but it was new technology, and nothing like we have now. The problem is stabilizing a heavy gun on a moving chasis, which is something the walkers would have too. With a lighter frame than a tank, the problem would be exacerbated.

If they developed better stabilization for the walkers, they would have better stabilization for the tanks. Because treads are more stable than a platform supported by legs, tanks would benefit from stabilization more than the walkers would. Walkers simply look cool, but aren't as good an idea as many games want them to be. Walking vehicles are a lot harder to make effective, especially more effective than a wide, low center of gravity vehicle.

I'm willing to suffer through those problems when the game works and looks cool enough, and Dust does.

As for walkers being able to strike and fade, that's exactly what allied tank crews did to survive combat with the German tanks. If they stayed still where they could be seen, they got hit, and all of the German late war tank guns were quite capable of punching through allied armor. WW2 tanks trained to stop only long enough to get a good shot in, and then scoot somewhere else. Modern tank crews train for the same thing; never to stay stationary, even if behind some cover, but fire, and move to a new position, preferable while completely out of the enemy's line of sight.

The Pershing, which barely saw action, and the Stalin series, were the only ones who stood much chance against German guns, and that wasn't a sure thing by any means. Allied tank destroyers went for the opposite defense, and relied solely on speed and maneuver to stay away from German shells. They carried enough armor to stop light weapons, but packed in a lot of horsepower for maneuver.

Gimp said:

+1

a platform with legs is not more stable than a treadhead. walking imparts a bobbing moement to the vehicle, very hard to compensate for mechanically. actually if you look at the models for the medium walkers the ability walk with speed or even at all is questionable.

ReaverRandall said:

Yes, I'd love to see someone put together an animation of what it looks like for these walkers to walk. I feel like the allied ones must "hop" - hence their "jump" ability.

but readin the operation seelowe(i think) explain the things its prolly faster cause it can just walk over rubble and it has a better fov cause of its higher postition both of these make me think its in an urban settin but in a plains like area prolly the take it better cause the ground aint cover in debris makin it both able to drive at top speed and not block vision

I don't think there can be any good argument against tanks being more stable. If hit, they'd much better stand a chance of staying in the fight. As to walkers bobbling...this is sci-fi and alien tech, so one could assume that they'd have smart fighting design and walk/run keeping a level height (see good martial arts training and cats). Bobbling heads attract attention...level height, less so. I'd probably steer a little clear of the Star Wars animation for this. Ewoks would get pasted in Dust. Stomped on, in fact.

That said, it's the speed and mobility that would give walkers an advantage. I certainly don't see them as firing on the run, but shooting, then running. Some WWII tanks and tank destroyers were exceptionally good at that, but a walker might be better. If not, then what's the point aside of sci-fi effect. In the Dust world, I think this would have to be the case, and in the game, I think it's the best course.

Walker = move + shoot OR shoot + move

Tank = move + move OR Shoot

US forces started their tech w/ a German walker leg. Not sure how they got it (I don't read the Dust comics) but I'll bet some US armor was involved in the process.

Tanks belong in this game.

One additional thought: Should tanks get sustained fire for staying put?

From a completely real life stand point, the idea of a walk is stupid they are basically big moving targets. You'd be able to spot a walker from much further away then you would a tank and an object of that height would lose the use of sloped armor so not only is it easier to spot a walker and hit a walker it would also require much thicker armor to provide the same protection so tank > walker in real life.

But that aside walkers are much cooler than tank so walkers >> tanks.

ok are walkers true robots.not needing a crew,or just one man.if so that in its self would make it an asset on the field.

now my other ???what about lower hulls of tanks,and uppers like the walkers.

you could have 2 88,one on each side, along with 5cm gun on each side.

Tanks can be tossed in or prove a little more complicated. Give tanks 1 action, with double move or sustained fire being their options. Also, facing matters for hits on it. Make them 1x2 squares and force them to pay for facing changes in movement points. You end up with vehicles who are less agile, pack a heavy punch and just as fast. Walkers get the advantage in tight terrain.

Jb45 said:

I would like to see the source material on this.

Jb45 said:

Walkers carry a crew. They are not true robots.

More guns is not always a good thing. It adds complexity; increased recoil, increased ammunition worries, for loading, storage, and increased risk of catastrophic ammunition damage, along with increased weight for mobility and weapon tracking to name a few.

The British Matilda had armor that caused the Germans a lot of problems at the beginning of the war, but was designed with too little space for a replacement turret with a bigger gun. Some of the big tanks only carried ammunition for less than 20 shots, which is fine for a short battle, but impractical for a prolonged battle unless you have phenominal resupply capability, which doesn't happen on the battlefield very easily.

Walkers have an upper limit for capability, simply because they have much higher ground pressure than a tank compared to their overall weight. One of the advantages for the T34 was that it had wider treads than comparable German tanks, and so was much less likely to bog down in the mud. Walkers make that problem much more significant as you raise their weight, because the ground pressure would be significantly higher than for a comparable weight tank with full length treads.

Armor is one big weight, but the gun can be an even bigger problem. The bigger guns added problems simply due to their weight and length causing a lot higher weight to the front of the vehicle. Balancing that on a walker could make it have problems, either from yet greater ground pressure, or a front heavy load that could make balance more difficult.

Heh, not mentioning the sheer number of point failure targets available vs. a walker. How many? Start counting joints in your own legs, if I incapacitate them, you don't walk no more and probably won't be standing either.

Walkers only have an advantage over tanks in tight terrain since they are more maneuverable, but that advantage requires armor cheap & light enough to adequately armor the walker and a power supply both powerful & light enough to let it move swiftly.

Move out in the open and big guns on tanks will butcher walkers, which is why the variants of the Loth were first used (successfully) at Stalingrad. They could move up and shred barricades and punch holes in walls with relative impunity.

grand inqusitor

it was a program on the discovery channel,or the history channel.they were talking to sherman crews about the war.

Whats with all the Robo Hate'n??

I play DT because I LIKE the walkers! Realism-Shmealism! give me a huge, impractical, shooty stomper and I will do a hat dance all over your tank any day!...... as long as no one is in it at the time!

The only Robo in DT i'm not the biggest fan of is the allied light walker, the body is cool, the legs are cool, the feet are...... stupid.....

It has the tiniest, most absurd little feet! I REALY want to chop mine off and find some better ones!....... But I'm too chicken to put it under the knife.....

Dont get me wrong, i would love to add tanks to the game, i think the sci-fi ellament of the game means ROBO'S RULE!!!

Have fun blow'n stuff up!!!

A walker is much, much smaller than a tank carrying the same weaponry. This allows it to enter buildings that are far too small for a tank as well as the mines that contain the precious VK ore. It is also far more maneuverable than a tank when travelling through rough terrain such as the Black Forest.

The added height, while making it an inviting target, allows it to see much more of the battlefield than any other land-based vehicle. This is essential in urban warfare where walkers can be used to direct troops on the ground. It also has the advantage that we can shoot over our own troops in the narrow streets of Dover.

There is also the issue of personnel. And even a medium walker is piloted by a single solider. Russia vastly out numbers us in sheer population; we need to make every solider count. A Panzer requires a crew of five, while a walker can be operated by a single pilot.

There is still a place for tanks in open field battles, but even the may be eventually replaced with the heavy walkers currently being researched.

A Luthor carrying a 5cm flak cannon weighs 15 tons, while a PzKw IV with a bigger gun weighs 23 tons. Heavier tanks weight more, but come with substantially more armor. Vehicles carrying the 5cm flak are lighter than the Luthor. Any one of them could have problems in any building with a basement, and the higher surface pressure created by a walker's two legs will cause it more problems than the tank's two treads. Buildings, especially residences or others suspected of having basements, should only be entered after an inspection on the ground by the crew or a knowledgeable infantryman.

The walker's height will also make many buildings problematic to enter when the average floor is 3 meters tall, while a tank can roll under the ceiling. Branches in the Black Forest can be dangerous for the unwary pilot, as well. A walker gives advantages for maneuver, but the wise commander sees the advantages still held by the earlier arm, as well.

With the average soldier under 6' tall, the command view of a tank is sufficient for command and control of most battlefields while retaining protection from the terrain. Even a tank can fire over infantry, especially well trained infantry that knows to take cover and stay low. Tanks can also better protect infantry while advancing by shielding them from enemy fire. Walkers excel at mobility, but must use different levels of caution in congested terrain than a tank. Too much height can conceal enemies under treelines that a tanker would spot easily.

While walkers use fewer crew than tanks, tanks can protect that crew with more armor, and survival is important to maintain tactical superiority. Any casualties are a blow, but veteran casualties are harder to replace. Multiple crewmen can also engage in multiple tasks without reducing their efficiency, allowing platoon commanders to oversee the battle with fewer distractions. Technological improvements aid all branches of the military.

Tanks excel in open fields. Walkers where maneuver is congested for other armor, and infantry still rules the urban jungle. Never forget to use what unit is best for any situation.