I just had a thought, is it possible for players (Or even just tech-priests,) to completely replace their bodies with robotic parts? For instance, if you have a tech-priest, they already come with a lot of metal. Give them cybernetic arms and legs, a Bionic respiratory system, cybernetic eyes, ears, and nose, and then a cortex implant, what physical body parts are left? They would need a battery in order to operate, even! Is this possible, and what would be the pros/cons of doing this to yourself?

Well, the cortex implant doesn't replace all the fleshy bits of the brain.

If anything, a "full" replacement would probably render the character an NPC, and depending on the machine spirits of the "brain," a form of tech-heresy. Fairly certain self determining, self improving, strong AIs are pretty high up there on the list of no-nos in the Ad-mech.

Past that, going full metal-bits is entirely possible, there is even a form of cyber ressurection in the IHB that covers something similar.

If they actually have acquired all the implants, then really, I'd just play it straight by the rules and have them gain all the normal bonuses. If you want it to be a theme of the game, insanity points are always reasonable, as per the more cyberpunk "cyber-psychosis."

But yes, acquiring most of the implants across the books would basically turn one (esp. a tech-priest) into pretty much a full cyborg.

I think in theory, there would always be some organic parts, although you would probably have to do a lot of looking on some more venerable tech priests to find them. I think it would not be unheard of in the warhammer universe to have a tech priest with greater then 95% machinery, and for all intents and purposes to be a machine, but their will remain some scrapes of organic matter. Even serivators build upon organic matter. Maybe the art of true robotics is one of those lost secrets of the golden age.

The Eisenhorn trilogy features a villian who has had his consciousness "digitized" and downloaded into a purely cybernetic body.

Adeptus-B said:

Forgot about that one , which raises the question of 'consiousness' vs 'machine-spirit'.

Another point to consider is The Janus Simulacra factor. At what point does one change from 'human' to 'robot trying to pass of as human' Then again, this could be avoided by having something clearly non-human in form, but at his point one would lose the sanctioning of the Imperium.

Which would be great for a character or antagonist...hmmm....

dward526 said:

Actually the difference between "Consciousness" and "Machine-spirit" isn't really all there, at least not for the big deal machines. Like a Space Marine Land Raider. That thing's "Machine-spirit" is someone who has been servitorized and implanted into the vehicle specifically to be it's war spirit. AIs as we know it are a no-no, so they cheat and use human brains.

In terms of Titans the patterns are from ancient Terran animals, instead of actual AI's.

It is possible, in the fluff, to become entirely inorganic. Examples given indicate those that do shed their humanity to live a gestalt existence with others of their kind.

About the Land Raider. Fluff indicates a near complete/complete STC of the Raider was discovered by an Adept Land. It can be surmised the limited machine spirit of the Land Raider is artificial, not one copied from a human mind. I haven't seen any fluff indicating they have any organic origins. Unlike the Titans which are known to use imprints of ancient Terran animals as their avatars.

Anyone have any source fluff for the Land Raider having a human imprint in its construction?

bobh said:

Back in the late '90s, an issue of White Dwarf included a poster featuring a "cut-away" diagram of a Land Raider. Deep inside the hull is a human skull with a bunch of wires feeding out of it, labeled as the "machine spirit".

As far as I know, true a.i. is strictly illeagle in the 40Kverse (a concept borrowed from Frank Herbert's novel Dune , the primary influence on the creation of 40K), no exceptions.

Which Issue of White Dwarf? Do you remember the year?

I ask because this would be an interesting contradiction in the fluff. Consider that the Land Raider predated the Imperium (being an STC design) and the restrictions on man using no AI. Why would they have infused a human into their machine when they did not 'need' to? This sounds like something that would be contradictory - changing the template of the holy STC.... which Mars does not countenance.

Also, we can get into what 'true' AI is for pages so lets not go there - the AI of a Land Raider is quite capable of independent action (ill go look up the Raider that hunted down a Warboss) and is very unlikely to be a servitorized human.

EDIT: Rynn's Might was the name of the Land Raider that survived the destruction of the Crimson Fist Monestary and 'waged a solo war' against the orks, killing their warboss and 'many of his followers'.

There is a cybernetics implant in Black Crusade that grants you the machine characteristic with a value of 1 per time you get it implanted. I don't think picking up a machine rating another way is possible without the one alternative career path in Rogue Trader or Magos ascension paragon talents.

bobh said:

I believe it was #245, from 2000.

bobh said:

There are hints in the fluff that AIs caused the collapse of pre-Imperial technology, so I think that the Techpriests would probably make an exception in this case, replacing the required AI node (which they probably couldn't manufacture anyway) with a servitor brain.

bobh said:

I may be wrong about this, but it's my impression that not all servitors are "mindless", but have their capacity for independant action set at the time of creation based on the servitor's purpose. In one of the Ravenor novels, there is a servitor that pilots a small transport vehicle that talks like a normal human being, and even expresses fear at the prospect of being destroyed. I don't think it's a stretch to assume that a slaved servitor brain in a Land Raider, lacking input from its (dead) masters, would continue to follow its last orders ("Kill orks!") to the best of its reasoning ability, which I suspect would be roughly comparable to that of a trained dog.

Robots in the warhammer 40k universe are heresy... that's the main stream way of thinking.

Replace parts with metal is legal in game stats you can take flesh is weak talent where parts of your body are replaced by cybernetics, or the elite package from IHB that made you a construct with human brain.

A.I is an heresy by imperial decree. Anywhere a processor is needed a humain brain is wired in the system.

The only one exeption to the rule is the Legio Cybernetica from Adeptus Mechanicus. witch are construct with a omnisia sanctionned artificial brain. But all of them are link to a tech priest resposible for them and having an on/off switch to put them down.

Thebigjul said:

Not necessarily human. They use animal nervous tissue and (I think) specially vat-grown organic material as well.

Back on topic a bit:

Yes, Tech-Priests do it regularly. The higher the rank, the closer to full cyborgization they get. (And some few very high ranking Magos go even a step further....).

And also characters from other ranks can get much of their flesh replaced with metal, limbs, armor-implants, inner organs, parts of the brain, and so on.

If no one else mentioned it already, they can also have their blood and related circulartory organs replaced via hermetic infusion per inquisitors handbook pg 138. Its a further departure from the flesh bringing them closer to mechanical perfection.

If the intention is to shed your human form for a superior mechanical one its a good step in the right direction with some inherent disadvantages (repair vs first aid and any serum lost due to bleeding must be replaced, so stock up.)

With the available implants and talents there would be little left of the human raw material, but a heavily armoured shell containing the remnants of one's augmented brain.

Barring a cascade failure of the internal support systems for the brain or its destruction there would be little that could actually kill you. Your mechanical body maybe lost but as long as the brain survived you could be rebuilt.

One may argue an AI composite of your brain may act or respond as you but it will not contain your essence unless you delve into the realm of psychic possession. In which case there is no AI to speak of but rather a construct infused with the essence of the techpriest essentially becoming a true machine spirit (a spirit inhabiting a machine).

That being said there may very well be technology lost or not (hidden perhaps) that can remove your essence and transfer into a vessel housed within a machine body.

My thoughts...

In Rogue Trader and Ascension, Tech Priests get the Talent called "The Flesh is Weak" that grants them the Machine(X) trait, meaning they have very little fleshy bits left. Also in Rogue Trader, there's an alternate career rank called Augmenticist that allows anyone but Tech Priest and Missionary (RT"s Cleric) gain the same Trait with the same justification.

Going through all the game lines, there is enough bionic replacements and implants listed that installing them all would leave parts of the brain not handled by the cortex implant as your only "wetware". It's not actually becoming a robot, but it means having less fleshy bits than most servitors have, and having various cybernetics handle and/or enhance virtually all bodily functions.

An official quote will probably be appropriate:

"Mark then sins that laid our mighty forbears low and learn well their lessons:

Make not a machine that suffers to think as a man,

Worship not the false god of progress,

And stare not too long into the darkness within,

For the first lies horror, the second ruin and the third eternal regret..."

-Principia Esoterica

Sigismund said:

On the other hand, the highest-ranking members of the Machine Cult tend to be very extreme in their quest for replacing the weak flesh with holy metal. And everyone puts up with them on the sole premise that somewhere in the middle of all those wires, servo-mechanisms and cogitator chips there's still a piece of live brain remaining. Not that anyone's checking, though, and not like it'd be easy to tell between a hypothetical Magos who had replaced the last bit of his brain with another cortex chip and the legit one who hadn't.

Food for thought.

Well, for one, any SANCTIONED Mechanicus cogitator core is quite incapable of Abominable Intelligence. Hypothetically, if a Magos was to fully replace all their brain-matter they suddenly wouldn't cast a shadow in the warp due to a fully mechanized sentience (similar to a Necron). If they knew that much they'd have to take precautions around psykers to not give away tell-tale signs but it would still be a matter of time before one of his contemporaries noticed something "off" and look further into it (if not the Inquisition proper).

Though Machine is pure and the biological inferior one can never fully cast it off for that would mark one as a Abominable Intelligence but, in augmenting the left cortex through excising and replacing the right, the mind can be made to commune with the machine as an equal in capacity. Both of these contradictory elements have to be followed or the Folly of the Iron Men will be repeated.

Its been years since I've read Eisenhorn , but wasn't that villain only able to achieve that through sorcery of some kind? In the same book, I do remember a Magos (Bure?) that had replaced all but his brain.

Also, the old Inquisitor game had options for Bionic Organs, one of which was the brain. Though it never describes if that was complete replacement or augmentation.

Also, while AIs are outlawed, some Machine Spirits can get pretty darn close to it without being outlawed (which is how I view the Land Raider).

Well, Dark Heresy has cortex implants but it's an augmentation rather than a replacement. Rite of Pure Thought is the closest the Adeptus Mechanicus have with regards to non-proscribed augmentics (half brain replacement, look towards the Opus Machina).

Well yes, a machine spirit can be advanced (The Legend of Rynn's Might who took on an entire warband of Orks, slaughtered their leader and took out most of his underlings) especially in larger/more advanced equipment/vehicles. Generally, the most advanced a machine spirit gets to be is one of a "dog-brain" type or similar to other high-order mammal brains (like the one's found in Adeptus Astartes power armor). A machine spirit can't fully substitute for a trained crew but it can still do **** well on it's own in a pinch for limited amounts of time. Though, don't assume all machine spirits are this advanced, a lot are just simply reptile or bird-brained.

Where do these references to animal intelligence come from? I don't ever remember reading that anywhere and I'm curious about it.

Seems pretty cool idea ya know getting closer to the omnissiah through augments and getting rid of the weak flesh. I just think there are not really a lot of flaws in doing that. Probably playing the character would tough since not having little or no emotions at that stage, plus I be worried about some body throwing a haywire grenade at me. But all in all seems pretty good concept

Morkalg said:

Well, that's as sophisticated as you can get when it comes to machine spirits before you fall off the deep end into making Abominable Intelligence. There are some exemptions to this rule like a Titan or Land Raider's machine spirit being described as having a distinct personality.

Item # 2, black dome. assume skull inside

http://i.imgur.com/azfcDSZ.jpg