Wargames Factory have just released their heavy weapon teams which should fit in nicely with DT range as they are armoured with german gas-masked helmets. You get 8 men and 4 heavy weapon options - mortar, twin HMG, energy cannon and missile launcher. wargamesfactory.com/webstore/alien-suns/shock-troop-heavy-weapons-1

I'm thinking yoyr basic A2 5 man squad to include 2 heavy weapons and operators, 2 crew with pistol and a spotter commander with pistol. The twin MG's and energy canon stats can just be grabbed from the new releases and shouldn't be to difficult to make rules for mortars.

Interesting idea, but don´t you think it´s a little bit bold to talk about that in an official FFG board?

The models look real nice .... we need some more ground troops and heavy weapons.

Yup! FFG & DS need to rustle up some heavy weapons teams between them. I particularly like the idea of mortar teams and Inf armour 2 troops with Laser cannons or heavy Phaser weaponary.

Sorry, I have to disagree with this post, and it has nothing to do with a non-FFG line; for that matter I could care less, if it works, it works. My disagreement is with the "we need heavy weapons" idea. Dust has heavy weapons for infantry support, they are mounted on light walkers.

Perhaps my view of Dust is incorrect. I always considered the light mechs to be primarily infantry support. The Hans is the perfect infantry support team. It has a life of 3, and it carries anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons.

If you are looking for mortars or HMG squads, I am sure they are on the way. The double mg wielding infantry 3 for the axis are soon. I think the fliegerfausts do a nice job of what a mortar could do.

Besides, these figures on this thread look cartoonish. Yuck.

I don't follow that logic at all, in WW2 infantry had support tanks but still had support weapons themselves, so why shouldn't troops in WWW2? and a Mech would use up a lot more resouces than a couple of HMG's. Agree with the models though, WF stuff can be a bit naff, the officer looks more like a gorilla in a suit, ah wait............

There are 2 Heavy Weapons Squads for the Allies: The Death Dealers at 23 points and 5 health, and the Bot Hunters at 22 points and 5 health. The Blackhawk is 22 points and 3 health. It also has Fast. It also has All in one. It can do decent damage to infantry and armor up to the highest level, and if it has to use its All in One, it does double this damage.. Granted its range is not good, but if you deploy it properly, with the infantry to screen it, it is an excellent Heavy Weapons Squad.

I am fully aware that in WW2, all sides fielded Heavy Weapons squads. What I am trying to explain is that the Heavy Weapons here are being popped onto light walkers. Would I like to see PIAT with a 5 man infantry squad? Of course. However, it is concentrated into the Blackhawk for now. I would also much rather field a Blackhawk for the same points as a Heavy Weapons Squad.

The game needs heavy weapons teams because they would make for cool mini's. Two guys prone on the ground peering over a heavy machine gun amidst the rubble. Oh and one with a spyglass. Its staple for the genre!

Both sides use a one man portable hmg. You could easily make a 5 man unit of just hgms for either side with no problems. I am not sure if Dust Studios will do this, since Allies now have the Grim Reapers and the Axis will soon have the Heavy Assault Grenadiers, both teams of which are entirely hmg armed. So perhaps this is the heavy squads you are looking for? Or is it still an obsession with 2 or 3 man hmg teams you can find in any normal WW2 game?

The Spotter rule would indicate that we'll probably see heavy weapon squads.

"SPOTTER
A unit with this ability reverses its attack rolls . It considers as , and as . A
Spotter is never found alone: he is always with a Sniper or a heavy weapons squad ."

asbestos said:

Well, an Armor 3 spotter might come out, and be attachable to the current heavy weapons squads, which are Armor 3.

I do not understand the obsession with armor 2 heavy weapons squads. Why would you have 2 guys toting around an old hmg, when you have 1 guy toting around 2 of them in Armor 3 and damage resilient???

Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex said:

Completeness and theme I guess, maybe joining an arms race is not everybody's ideal. I don't see Company organisation changing to much, they would still have their HQ, grunt and support weapons, not everything has to be A3 just because it can.

Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex said:

I dont understand your obsession with AC3 troops? It makes perfect sense for both the allies and axis to have two man weapon squads (especially if Dust Warfare is a real Table Top style game). First, from a fluff point of view, two guys in light body armor (AC2 or so) with a mortar or machine gun or bazooka is much cheaper to field then a robot or a man in buzz lightyear armor. Second, a twm man squad is perfect to set up in a bell tower, behind a wall, in a trench and so forth for security and defensive positions.

Third, from a gamer point of view, some people prefer normal looking troops over US/UK Buzz Lightyear or Axis Iron Monger troops. Sure, I enjoy the AC3 troops, but I feel they are more special and more interesting if only one or two squads are on the board. Otherwise it just become a AC3 game and you never see AC2 troops.

I feel, that right now FFG/DT are making the mistake of slowly replacing all the AC2 troops with AC3 versions and while that means most squads will have only 3 hit pointws instead of 5, it also means that the everyday normal guy will be missing from the game. Already I can field 5 squads (that I have) of AC3 troops and two AC3 heroes and a slew of AC4 tanks. The mere face that I can pretty much field every battle from the first 3 scenario books with nothing but AC3 tnfantry is making the game lest interesting IMHO.

Some unique AC2 troops, like fire support squads of 2 or 3 men, combat engineers and so forth.

Making the option of me being able to field a Axis Panzerschreck with a spotter for 10 points would be nice. Sure, for 11 more points i could field a full squad of 5 with 2 panzerfausts and no spotter, but sometimes you dont have 11 more points.

The game has room to grow and can easily grow. Its not like the miniature parts dont already exist (or the rules). A heavy weapons squad pack of 4 Axis troops (a Panzerschreck from the battlegrenadiers, a MG 48 from the Recon Grenadiers and two spotters from the sturmgrenadier sniper team all with heads from the battlegrenadiers) and two new cards. And FFG/DM can charge $15 for it.

Same goes for Mechanic Squads, teams of 3 AC2 troops that each have the Mechanic Ability. And Medic Squads, a medic and two support fighters (or two medics and a support fighter) or even a medic and a single support fighter.

I agree that HW squads would be logic to the fluff of WWW2, and also they would look cool.

I do believe, though, like somo others who have spoken here, that Dust is not going in that direction, as much as some respected members of the community desire.

So IMO, it´s simply NOT going to happen. Same as "regular troops" (maybe some vehicle, equivalent to the laning barge or something but on ground). Please, dont get me wrong, I agree qith the completeness, and everything, but clearly DT will have, for example, some armor 3 heavy weapons specialist squad of sorts, or an ultra light walker, rather than classic historical style squads. That´s the genre I feel that the game developers are intending to reach.

Where you see completeness of teh universe of the game as a goal, they see the diferentietion from other wargames. In a way, they going more to a cross of WW2 and Battletech, rather than WH40K IG battles.

My guess anyway

Aldarion said:

I'm going to agree with you on what is most likely to happen. Everyone is on the GW bandwagon:

1. Produce minis,

2. Mark minis up for max profit,

3. Only have rules for official minis.

Note that for 2. above, the profit margin can go quite high as long as GW rules the minis roost and continues to raise prices on minis a couple of times a year regardless of anything else.

I'll keep agitating for unit card packs for regular 1/48 models, but I doubt they will go there. There is another reason, unless they make the walkers silly overpowered or go the way of 40k tanks being so immobile then the only battles with lots of walkers will be cluttered battlefields. Otherwise you will see tanks doing what walkers are doing now in my games: sitting on a firelane restricting movement. Even on a cluttered board, one tank could be deployed for that and the walker could clump around where it has superior movement.

Maybe you get some troops jacklegging a light tank chassis & turret on a pair of experimental German walker legs to make a walker, but that isn't mass production of material.

If you are going to base your arguments on the "fluff" then you are totally wrong. Both sides are suffering from manpower shortages, and this is after they have recruited women, who are fairly excellent fighters. In all logic, why would you create 5 man squads to do a job at half the efficiency of a 3 man squad, and it be less durable to boot? It does not make logical sense. If you have a manpower shortage, you start better arming and protecting the troops you have to work with, you do not keep putting them into weaker armor and larger, LESS efficient units. Do any of you have the new Armor 3 units?? Have you used them tabletop? If you give me a choice between a 5 man Armor 2 heavy squad and a 3 man Armor 3 squad, guess what I am going to take? And when you add Allied Jump or Axis Damage Resistance, you further out perform the 5 man Armor 2 squad. And what if this 5 man squad with mortars and hmg's is the same point cost as a Medium walker: which unit will you pick then? The walker will squash armor 2 troops, and some walkers are self repairing as well.

Now if you want these squads for how they look on the table, I agree with you. I would not mind having them. I like the current release 5 man heavy squads. But when I use them on the tabletop, they get slaughtered. Will a mortar crew stop them from being slaughtered? No. It will just tie points up I could better spend elsewhere.

Dude, I seriously do not understand this rabid hatred of heavy weapon squads.

2 dudes with a mortar and a Spotter:

Make it artillery (the fleigerfaust or whatever does NOT model what mortars do, remotely), give them the same cover saves as the observer/sniper squads. Done, filled a role that doesn't exist.

Or 2 guys with something fancy, like an anti-mech/tank rifle and a spotter. Long range anti-armor good for taking out heavily armored troops and lightly armored walkers, but still not representing a serious investment (like a Anti-mech walker or a full anti-mech squad, both of which tend to have short ranges anyway, except for medium sized and up)

Hatred? I do not have a hatred of them, DUDE. If they would put out a 2 man mortar squad, with an optional spotter, I would buy it since I do collect them. Do I think it will be as effective as a 3 man Armor 3 heavy squad. Absolutely not, and play testing would prove this.

How can an Armor 2, 2 man unit of hmg's be better than a 3 man squad carrying what amounts to 6 of them? 2 against 6. The math alone seems to answer the question.

How many points would a spotter and this heavy weapon be? 15 points? I would like to see what people cost out a single Victory MG. Would this unit be fast? If it is a mortar, does it have to reload? Does it receive better cover saves? And finally, How is it better than a 3 man armor 3 squad with heavy weapons?

asbestos said:

And what precisely do you think a mortar does? I am just curious. If anything, they suppress units, and do minor damage. So what happens when a unit is targeted by a mortar? Do the hits force it to activate, thus suppressing it? Or do you see a mortar as a super weapon which kills a squad on a few hits? If so, that is not what a mortar does: they are little better than a grenade, but with a longer range. So how is a mortar going to work?

Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex said:

Mortars are man portable "Artillery" weapons. They would ignore saves in Dust Tactics. They may only be a 1/1 or 2/1 attack and may only have a 2-4 range or something, but they would ignore cover, much the same as a grenade launcher.

What do mortars do? Well in my experience down range, mortars kill people. Kill people behind rocks. Kill people in holes. Kill people in houses. I would rule that as a primary indirect weapon that they would be able to fire indirectly as a single action. They fire rapidly (pretty much as fast as you can drop rounds in them, waiting, of course, for the previous round to fire) so they would be able to do sustained firing, even indirect.

I would say a two man squad armed with a heavy weaon and a spotter/loader/whatever the second guy would do, would cost the same as a sniper team, 10 or so points. So for the price of a 30 point 3 man AC3 squad I could field 3 of these small squads.

In addition, much like the other two man teams in the game they would get the better save option of saving on misses instead of hits.

In a world where they are strapped for manpower, creating two man specialist squads makes more sense then arming men in "powered armor" that is expensive especially when the squad will most likely suffer some losses and then you lose the armor.

Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex said:

All I'm seeing is rage against Heavy Weapon teams or blind love for the Armor 3 infantry.

How is a Light Walker better than a Medium Walker? Light Walkers shouldn't exist. All we need is Armor 3 (or 4?) infantry, Armor 7 tanks, Armor 3 aircraft. Nothing else is worthwhile.

That's basically the argument you keep spouting.

Also, learn about mortars. They are the squad level version of artillery. They aren't about 'suppressing', machine guns suppress. Assuming that the 60mm light mortar is what you're talking about for 'minor' damage... I certainly wouldn't rate a 17 yard blast radius as 'minor'. If we go up a step to the 80mm mortar then its doing the damage of a 75mm howitzer, is the 'Mickey' doing minor damage? As for reloading, mortars generally can fire from 15rpm-30rpm, depending on crew training, so I don't think the 'Reload' ability would be appropriate.

Peacekeeper_b said:

A 2-4 range doesn't seem appropriate for a weapon that could effectively fire 1km and the damage would certainly have to be higher than a UGL/Grenade.

So write it up and lets see how it works in my next game. I neither hate nor love anything, but in my experience, and I play the game which clearly some posters do not, the armor 3 troops have provided the best most cost effective heavy weapons so far.

If a 3 man armor 2 team can do as well, I am all for it. give me the stats and the card info, and I will even build the little mortar with its spotter and its 2 troops, and play it to exhaustion.

asbestos said:

The Hans has a Granate Werfer, which is a mortar in German parlance. Could you not just use its stats for a mortar? Or do you want to shoot across the board with impunity?

Once again, I think the Hans covers the Heavy Weapons pretty nicely.

I have been trying to find a 122 mm barrel to create a rapid fire mortar for a medium walker, but have only found one on ebay. I would like to make one, but it looks to me like the Hans already has 3 of them.