Hello all,

I just wanted help on the timing on Red Vengeance and Claim.

The situation was this. My opponent was sitting on 12 power on his House card and characters. He initiated with a Power challenge (claim 2). I had no characters with Power icons so I could not defend so the attack went unopposed. He should've won since he'd have claimed 2 power and 1 for unopposed and thus won the game. However, I played Red Vengeance that reads "cancel the claim effect of that challenge."

So I'd like to know if ever I had the opportunity to play Red Vengeance. From what I know, claim happens first before responses so I should've lost that game. Also if the challenge were Intrigue, the Red Vengeance may be discarded from my hand before I have the chance to play it.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

You are right with both. Claim go first and he wins immediately having 15 power. Same for Intrigue. According to flow it is like this:

1. Determining winner

2. Claim

3. Unopposed

4. Renown

Now all players have time for resolution of passive effects trigerred and afterwards all responses.

You are correct that basic Responses come after claim. However, Red Vengeance is not a "basic" Response. It uses the word "cancel," so it is a cancel Response. Cancel Responses have a different timing. They (along with saves) are the only effects that can interrupt other effects in this game. As such, the proper place to play them is between the initiation and resolution of whatever they are canceling.

Said another way, cancel effects mean "don't do it in the first place," not "undo what has already happened." Or, in game flowchart terms, Cancel Responses come in Step 2, not in Step 5 with all the other Responses.

So, because Red Vengeance cancels the claim effects of the challenge, you play it after claim is initiated, but before it is resolved. The result is that the claim never actually resolves. The result is that you opponent with 12 power never actually takes his 2-power form your House. Later, he still gets the 1 for unopposed (when unopposed resolves), but because cancels specifically interrupt the normal flow and action of the game, he never takes the 2 for claim (from you).

To illustrate ktom's answer with a flowchart:

1. Determining winner
1.a Opportunity to cancel determination of winner (e.g. Burning on the Sand, True Power, Feigned Retreat)

2. Claim
2.a Opportunity to cancel claim (e.g. Red Vengence)

3. Unopposed
3.a Opportunity to cancel power gained from unopposed challenges (no examples thus far)

4. Renown
4.a Opportunity to cancel power gained from Renown

5. Other passive effects

6. Other responses

Well, if you're going to do the flowchart, it technically looks like this:

1a: Initiate "Determine challenge winner"
2a: Save/Cancel vs. "Determine challenge winner"
3a: Resolve - winner/loser of challenge set.

1b: Initiate claim effect
2b: Save/Cancel vs claim effect <-- Red Vengeance HERE
3b: Resolve - power actually moves

1c: Initiate "Award unopposed"
2c: Save/Cancel vs. "Award unopposed"
3c: Resolve - power "physically" claimed for unopposed (if applicable)

1d: Initiate "Award Renown"
2d: Save/Cancel vs. "Award Renown"
3d: Resolve - Renown characters on winning side "physically" claim power

4: Passive effects: activated by anything in 1a-3d

5: Basic Responses: to anything in 1a-4, or earlier in 5

6: End: Cards that went moribund in 1a-5 are physically removed from table

Awesome! Thanks old-timers.