While Cerberus certainly looks certainly inviting (and will probably find a home in my house)... i cannot help but feel a bit down as it is definitely not the expansion i was expecting.

Anyone else want to see the flying units?

It's just that i wonder how they are going to add the flyers to Tactics and Warfare at the same time? Add a campaign expansion to Tactics with the flyer rules in them and then to a Warfare core rulebook second edition just for them? Have to buy a second book for Warfare in order to play the flyers?

I'd rather get the flyers first and have a complete Dust Warfare rulebook as they seem like the last "critical" piece of the rules that are missing from the Dust universe.

After that, add the new factions, the Vrill and the Russians. Either add those two at the same time in a Core set "2" or start with the Vrill. I'd rather see the really heavy armour of the Vrill before another faction that will look and play a lot like the Axis and Allies.

And as a side-note. I am kind of let-down by the units in the revised. While i am quite happy with them and look forward to many plays, i cannot help but feel like the Axis and the Allies are two very similar factions now. The Allies always had their own flamethrowers. It was their main "flavor", now the Axis has one. The gorillas / zombies were close range powerhouses that were unique to the Axis (and balanced by the BBQ squad on the other side), now the Allies have their own mobile power armours that are very strong in close range.

It seems that every unit that makes the flavor of a faction seems to be copied to the other a few weeks later in a different product. I wish the factions could be a little bit more disctinct. Right now, i feel like they are more variations on the same theme.

These are my small nitpicks on this otherwise great game...

I agree, they are feeling pretty similar again after diverging with the Gorillas/Zombies against sleeker and larger battle armors of the Americans. Now the Axis got some battle armor and some flamethrowers, and are feeling awful similar. I definitely think they need to keep some exclusive flair to each faction.

Hopefully we get the two other factions soon, or else there will be so much out for the Americans and Axis it will take years to catch up the other factions. And in that time they'll have to stop releasing stuff for the original two factions to allow to others to build up units.

If they really want this game to take off as a miniatures/tabletop game, they need to get other factions into the mix. That is the fun part about getting into a miniatures game, choosing your army and making them yours. Would be cool to get up to 4, or maybe 5 if they separated the Axis and Japanese forces. A second alien race coming for VK maybe?

Lots of ways they can go, but they need to add more variety in factions and units if they want this game to get to the next level.

While I'll agree that the revised core set brought more similarity between the factions, they still play differently on the board. They aren't mirror images of each other yet.

I will disagree with the aircraft though. I can wait a long time before they show up. I've played other games that include aircraft, but with the limitations on models and flying stands, in games over 6mm scale, aircraft always end up playing like hovercraft.

rwwingate said:

While i doubt it's going to be the case with Dust, i'd go for an Aerotech / Battletech style of aircrafts. Basically, the aircrafts go so fast (an airplane could cover the entire board in a single turn) that they are hard to represent using actual miniatures.

Instead, every other turns, the aircrafts could do strafing runs (or the bombings) on the board. While they are going for the run, the AA units on the board could also fire at them if they were in the path of the run, or with increased difficulty if they were farther from where the plane made it's run.

It was a more abstract system, but it worked.

But then i doubt FFG / DM would want to not have to sell aircraft minis... Or maybe use them as markers to know where you are doing the run?

I will echo the sentiment on playing the models versus how they look. While it "looks" like the allies and axis have very similar units they play VASTLY different. We just played a few games in the last few weeks using the current rules and units available and found them to be as similar as cats and dogs. I like the way the releases are going and i love the way the game plays. My interest in the air models is purely aesthetic at this point is my experience with air power in other systems has been that wjile it is a cool option it is rarely worth the investments of points.

The models make look similar, but they play totally different. You still have the allied speed, balanced out by the Axis toughness.

In WW2, each side did research to counter its enemies advances. Why would it be any different in Dust?

Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex said:

Because Dust Tactics is a game and i would prefer different flavors to the factions and different ways to play than a game trying to be too-realistic and less fun?

Also Dust Tactics is so far removed from WW2, might as well call it a sci-fi war with a retro look, but that's just my opinion.

About 3/4 of the units have nothing to do with with WW2. Between the zombies, apes, laser, mechs, phasers and power armours there's what? 3 or 4 units that *could* have been in WW2. Even the flamethrowers were not exactly things that were in service with the troops in WW2... Flamethrowers are practically useless in a real war outside their scare factor.

deedob said:

You misunderstood me: The Allies and the Axis in the REAL WW2 were constantly responding to each others developments. That is what I meant. As far as distinct flavors for a faction, I think that the visual difference between an Ape and a Soldier is significant. It appears to me that each unit tends to have an opposing unit which somewhat counters it, but does not break it. I like the game, I agree it could use some tweaking, but as far as its current life, it is moving forward.

And I would like to see air units, but I do think they are going to be VTOL, like hovercraft.

deedob said:

In WWII, the Amis had them, Germans had them, even the Japanese had comparatively inferior variants (Type 93 & 100). Initially they were used in WWI against the trenches.

They were mainly used against fortifications in WWII. They certainly had scare (psychological) factor, but they had practical use too.

I will add that the British Churchill Crocodile (of WWII) had a flamethrower variant. Also I've seen photos on my job of Korean War American vehicles w/ flamethrowers mounted on them, so if they were used there, then WWII practicality must have prompted further use.

What's unrealistic for them in this game is giving them the "Fast" ability as the tanks added weight & bulkiness.

vengeance000 said:

While I agree that Dust as a Tabletop Wargame (aka Dust Warfare) could use more factions, I'm not sold on the "sky is falling" feeling that I have seen on the forums so far referring to the lack of other factions for Dust Tactics. It's a board game after all. I seriously doubt that "it will take years to catch up" for any faction added to this game. Looking back on the FFG site for news related to Dust Tactics, I found that Dust Tactics hasn't even celebrated it's first birthday of general release. www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp as of October 22nd of 2010. Sure i'll give people that it was prereleased at Gencon, but that was limited, also not everyone goes to Gencon. Dust Tactics from your local FLGS was Oct 22nd of last year.

I will give Dust Studios and FFG some major props in making all of what is currently available within one year an impressive feat so far. Besides Aircraft, what else is a "hole" in the lines in either the Axis or Allies? Light/Medium/Heavy Robots = done/released by the end of the year. Most varieties of toops are already done, taking time to release the revised core set's troops over next year seems likely for the Axis/Allies "fix".

It was Loophole Master that had a list of Dust models to be released in 4th Quarter this year, with the info coming out of Gencon, www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp (post #21). I would think that 2012 is going to be Dust's growth year, Sinosoviets, Vrill and who knows what else might be in the minds of Mr. Parente and the Dust Studios staff?

Imagine what the statlines for Vrill might even be? We do get some hints in the work thus far "Armor: 4, Soldiers wearing armor that is far beyond what is found on earth in 1947." Just imagine for a minute how that would effect the game of Dust right now? Most Axis/Allies Soldiers weapons cant even scratch the paint of that armor 4 statline. Common Vrill being 3 and Heavy Vrill being 4 would make for balance even with the extra Axis/Allies models in game, simply because some units could not deal with them effectively. Add to that whatever crazy extra abilities that Dust Studios might give them.

Though that does not help the Sinosoviets view and I admit that.

I feel that Dust Studios and FFG will grow this game well, I'm looking forwards to next years coming lineup. As I await all of the nice new toys for this year.

I'd like to see some Armor 1 units, both for infantry and vehicles.

Rangers and Grenadiers (putting aside Gorillas, Zombies or powered-armor troop units) are nice spearheading forces to throw into the fray, but let's not forget the basic grunt trooper that makes up the bulk of an army - and the simpler (non-mech) vehicles that are fast, pack a respectable punch, and are nonetheless vulnerable to almost any weapon found in the battlefield.

Also some more terrain pieces - trenches, bunkers, field fortifications, gun pits - maybe done as special tiles, and mission objective stuff like artillery/AA guns or radar/radio emplacements. The new buildings in Operation Cerberus just scratch at the possibilities.

3 wishes?

1. More British troop/hero types please. Could be Army Commandos?

2. Introduction of Inf Amour 1 troops/heroes.

3. More battlefied terrain. Give me the Castle out of the novel with peel away levels LOL. Yes I would pay!

I suppose if I had 1 more wish it would be RAF planes like in the graphic novels to the same scale as the minis. Yes I know totally unworkable in a game but would be great as scenary or to collect.

I think Infantry 1 will come out with the SSU and maybe, I hope, the Japanese.

I hope we see some Allied AC-1 troops with the British Home Guard ... and some for the Axis too.

Anvil of War said:

It's sort of a given that the Vrill will use the squad armour 4 because of the rulebook description, but what i think could work to balance the fact that they would be untouchable would be to balance them with some kind of cheap units.

Have the Vrill be 2 races... or one with two vastly different kind of troopers. One with mega-armour and exosuits at armour 4 and the rest, small highly expandable troops with armour 1. We'd see a faction of extremes, allowing for slow tank-like infantry and the use of swarm tactics with the armour 1. The Dust Tactics version of the Tyrannids, Aliens, Zerg, whatever..., combined with hard to kill Predators, Protoss, whatever leading units... all within a single faction?

I really, at this point, want to see the unknown parts of Dust Tactics, or a glimpse of what is to come. The Sino-Soviets, while cool to have have another faction, i don't really care much as i see them as being more of the same... very similar to the Axis and Allies in play-style.

deedob said:

I have the feeling AC Infantry 4 troops will still be on average between 20-30 points, but the unit sizes will be smaller. AC2 is 5 troops, AC3 is 3 troops, AC4 will be 2 troops or 1 troop. Of course, AC2 has a few 2 man squads and AC2 and AC3 do have single heroes as well.

So AC1 will be like 8 or 10 troops. Hopefully you will have some 2 man and 3 man squad options, such as artillery and heavy weapon teams.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Don't think so, how do you fit so many in a single square? O will this be another instance, like the heavy walkers, of a unit that occupies more than 1 square?

I actually like the current factions, even if more were available I would still be focusing on the allied and axis(german) factions. The western front is my favorite aspect of WWII. I hope they continue to expand these ranges even after new factions are introduced. I think allied airpower played such a huge part in WWII that they really need to address it in the dust universe though. I would love to see allied forward observers calling in airstrikes!

Pooflinger76 said:

The problem will be, as several of us have noted, that there will be a lag in the Axis & Allies troop releases unless they get onto the SSU units soon. I understand FFG is caught in a bit of a vise because it takes substantial outlay to produce minis and the market is limited. Now expanding the market would be nice as it would allow for more income stream to outlay for more minis and more factions would help, but it is a chicken and egg thing. Can FFG afford to bite the bullet?

One solution is the one I have been proposing repeatedly: introduce IA1 troops (cheap five man squads) and actual tanks as card only releases. It gets the interest of other factions while reducing the capital outlay because there are plenty of model companies who build 1/48 WW2 tanks.

As for the Vrill, well they actually could wait a bit until some more balance issues get caught and fixed in the current game. Yes, I see several even though they can be minor:

1) Markus & Gorillas really need to bought together. You could call this a feature since it defacto limits the Axis to one effective Gorilla unit.

2) The current point system, while a step in the right direction is annoying. I'm finding it difficult to build lists that end in an even "0", especially for the Axis. I will note that this seems to be an artifact of the currently available heroes (pre Rev Core) because of the price differences between the heroes. The Hero pack will help fix this, as might some additional "variant" squads where you can swap individual soldiers in and out. That way if you end up a few points too high, you might be able to pull an individual out and run a four man squad, even with a penalty of some sort or a rule only allowing one (or possibly two) "short" squads in a list.