Whippoorwill said:

I disagree vehemently as I've consistently tried to set up parameters and supported them with scenarios rather than simply popping up one exceedingly rare scenario (like you) saying it holds equal representative value to far more likely scenarios (like the vast majority I've listen, excepting the freak occurrences such as the 2x Emergency Repairs scenario, which works in favour of DN's, but are hardly representative). Simply put, I think you need to reread the previous posts in this thread, however tedious that might be; I don't cherrypick theorycrafting to support only my arguments, especially not when this discussion unanimously stems from a desire to dissect the DN unit and its uses, of which there are sadly evidently few.

Whippoorwill said:

True that. I was just tired of reiterating the previous 15 resources = 3 Dreads = 1 WS + 6 Fighters (achieveable in any home system with Enviro). Or reiterating simple parameter points such as 1 Destroyer being superior to 1 DN if X+ Fighters are present due to pre-combat shots. (RAW, of course, can't statistically factor in Action Cards etc...).

Whippoorwill said:

Exactly!

Whippoorwill said:

Nor will I, but I do think that movement is tied intricicately to tactical flexibility and viability. If the opponent has an extra round preparing for your wrecking ball, your plans are essentially 'outdated'. While movement isn't everything per se, it is the foundation upon which 'everything else' resides.

Whippoorwill said:

I rarely research War Suns myself, as I mentioned previously in the thread. But lacking War Suns doesn't mean that you should de facto buy Dreadnaughts over other units just because you 'need something big (???)', as it is, in the vast majority of cases, a subpar unit. Now, if you have an Admiral... then great and congrats, you've got a fully fledged Star Destroyer

Whippoorwill said:

That would infringe upon the L1Z1X's racial ability territory, making their DN's cost 3, or alternatively removing their advantage. I'd have difficulties perceiving the immediate repercussions of this. A LOT of people use the more or less standardized solution of giving Dreadnaughts 2 Dice rather than 1, and making them lose 1 Die if they Sustain, as this has proven to be quite balancing both in practice and in theory.

Thanks Eu8l1ch.

Eu8L1ch said:

Yes, yes and yes.

Eu8L1ch said:

Exactly. It's quite similar to MOBA-style games actually; a gold advantage isn't immediately reflected in the game at first glance, but to the experienced player it's a gap that will only be exacerbated further as the game progress.

Eu8L1ch said:

Exactly, one of my initial arguments as well, and one I recently reiterated in another thread; War Suns are so far ahead of everything else that against a WS, only another WS is a potential counter. This is hugely problematic for several reasons (which I trust are pretty obvious and self-explanatory). I don't want the more easily accessible DN unit to become a counter-unit to WS's, but as it is they're not even an alternative, more like a laughing stock.

Eu8L1ch said:

Exactly.

First: I am (more or less) convinced. Experience and personal style matter a lot, especially in games crawling with possibilities like Twilight Imp. But I certainly will build no more DNs than I have Admirals in my next game (unless I get a SO), just for experience's sake.

I may also owe you an apology, Iorveth. I've read the full thread, though I most likely did not recall every bit of it at the end, and understood the points made. You made a whole lot of them, but in a style similar to discussions I have done in other forums. These discussions did not at all go well, and soon got personal in nature, thereby discrediting the actual points made. So I provoked a personal response in that style by playing a bit less insightful than I really am. I didn't get such a response, I was wrong, so here my apology for a little manipulation and testing.

The one question that keeps me from being completely convinced, is: why didn't FFG change the DN? They've shown a grasp of statistics in general, and there are threads here where designers take part. The one answer I can think of, is, that most changes are done to balance something overpowered, and balancing something underpowered might simply escape their notice. But that's not really satisfying.

For the "Freak Scenarios", well, they occur, though certainly not in a frequency to be taken into an overall statistic (the "double emergency repairs incident" is already part of my experience, though I don't expect it to happen again in foreseeable future). However, some can actually be constructed by a player, and if a player can do it, he should have the material for it (even if it includes a DN). But that's not part of general statistics, granted.

The house rule of 1 extra die for undamaged DNs would imply IMO that a War Sun can sustain 2 damage, losing a die for every hit taken. Is that the way you play it?

Did the idea of reducing a DNs cost simply not occur to you, or didn't you use it for a reason that does not occur to me (or simply didn't like it)? Sure, L1z1x-DNs would cost only 3 Res. then, but I see no real problem there.

The solution to make Dreads better is to allow them movement 2 for non combat movement.

So if all your Dreads are stuck on the left side of your empire, you can easily move them 2 to the right side of your empire to defend agaisnt an upcoming attack from that side.

This is why even when I play L1Z1x, I build all my Cruisers first instead of Dreads.

If some player builds up a huge fleet on my border, only Cruisers are fast enough to get over to block the upcoming invasion.

If another player builds up a huge fleet on my other border, the Cruisers can get back in time to stop that upcoming invasion.

Dreads, once committed to one border, are pretty much stuck there.

A technology to let movement 1 ships move 2 for non combat movement would be nice tech.

But letting Dreads have movement 2 for combat movement is too much for the early game.

Imagine Hacan using Production to build all 5 of his Dreads at once and then attacking you the very next turn.

That is too much handle in the early game.

A common house rule for DN is 2 shots/hits. And also making the War Sun 3 shots/hits.

2 things in TI3 you will have a hard time convincing most veteran players.

1. Yssaril is NOT easily the best race

2. DNs is a godd ship(exception of having the admiral)

Yes, I know there are times when a DN is a reasonable purchase(L1z1x, SO, defensive, low production), but for most cases it is not the right build.

Even worse is building it early.

Bill

I've seen dreads get heavy use in some games. Usually it requires a law or two to go into effect. Publicized Weapon Schematics makes everyone afraid of building warsuns as they become too easy to kill. The law that restricts you to only have only 2 of each ship type in a system forces you to fill in the gaps with dreads.

Iorveth said:

Reiterating this for Tremere; so we've established we've got a cool-looking unit (or, actually, a whopping 40 of them, 5 per color) that is the optimal build once in a blue moon if 1-2 laws go through or if the stars align. Or, as many do, houserule them to have 2 dice, in which case they're widely regarded as somewhat balanced.

Right. Didn't you just confirm the point already stated, namely that Dreads are only an optimal build under very specific circumstances? Aye. Is that really good design or intended, considering the plastic pieces used on the unit that could be used on other stuff? Dubious.

Just throwing in my two cents, which is while I normally don't build towards DNs other players in my group do. And I am not that upset about this.

While I agree that dreads are usually pretty terrible units, the situations in which they are not do exist and the primary arguments against them seem to making assumptions that are not universal.

A) Dreadnoughts are resource inefficient

True, but unused resources disappear at the end of the round and fleet supply or build limits can be your real limiting factor. When there are resource sinks, by all means prioritize for resource efficiency, but that isn't always true.

B) Destroyers are better than dreadnoughts for defense

First off, ADT destroyers *are* better than dreads on a damage output basis (assuming fighters). Hylar destroyers are only better if your fleet will be destroyed in one turn (I'm not sure why you're assuming that all "oh ****" defense fleets are against overwhelming numbers). If you're able to produce a fleet that has a chance of winning the defensive effort, you then have to take into account the dreads' sustain (potentially giving them an extra turn of firing) in addition to the eventual firepower superiority.

C) Dreadnought tech is bad and hard to get

True, so why buy it? Sometimes you just don't have the opportunity to tech up or have other tech needs. If you're not teching them, war suns don't exist, destroyers aren't better, and carriers are just as slow (though admittedly still way better at combat). Dreads start out as a pretty solid combat unit. Not an efficient one, not a fast one, but in the circumstance where you're prioritizing economic tech and unexpectedly have to defend yourself, they'll start out functional.

There are some other niche benefits to dreads (PDS soaking, being less threatening than fast ships*, bombardment for easier raiding).

To reiterate my initial statement, dreadnoughts are often a bad buy, and they should be a good buy more often than they are, but it's not all that ridiculous to find circumstances where they are.

(*Yes this can be a benefit.)

Ok, if dreadnoughts are overpriced then what should their cost be. I would think that would serve toward making you feel they are worth it and priced just right.

Ok, if dreadnoughts are overpriced then what should their cost be. I would think that would serve toward making you feel they are worth it and priced just right.

So far I've seen dreadnoughts tip the balance in both games I've played. Often not only hitting on 5's (4's with the right action card) but soaking up damage that would've knocked out other ships. By taking a wound on the Dread' it keeps something else alive and you then still get a few more shots. So far I think if you can't have a war sun which let's be honest is over twice the cost anyhow, they are worth it. And I've seen a single dreadnought massacre 2 carriers and a cruiser with unlucky dice rolls, or lucky depending on which you happen to have been

In 12 games I've seen DN intensive players lose every game, and the L1Z1X Mindnet have never won a game in our group in over 16 game plays. The solution is simple, give the DN 2xd10 dice in space battle.

Speed is key to winning twilight 3 games .

Norr has the strongest fleet but lowest wins because he is stuck with movement 1 ships.

Movement 1 ships are the best bargain in wars of attrition but are horrible units to grab VPs. Your opponent can predict your invasion path and easily stop you.

Dreads main weakness is that it not a good unit for grabbing VPs because of its speed.

Stack a couple of Dreads at the front line and everybody on the board knows you are up to something. With only movement 1 speed, it will not be vary hard to figure out what and stop you.

So for the average L1Z1X player, building Warsuns instead of Dreads, gives you better results in winning games.

A highly skilled L1Z1X player, will build a Dread fleet because he has a plan on how to get around the movement 1 restriction.

Don't forget the Admiral gives it +1 movement, though when I get the add-ons I'll be adding my admirals to Flagships which makes more sense.

Okay, here are my two cents. I won't claim to have the experience with the game that everyone else seems to have, so I'm sorry if I'm a little off in that respect. I'll argue dreadnoughts in theory instead. All of my claims are written normally, and the justification is written in italics. If you have already read the argument (which many of you have), then just skip the italics.

I think that the first point that needs to be established is that under no circumstances is the dreadnought the best ship.

The dreadnought, as math has proven, has the lowest raw hit rate per resource and, counting fighter escorts, the lowest hit soak per resource.

However, I don't think that this means that they should be ignored simply for this reason.

If there was one "best" ship, then almost every ship would be ignored. Fighters have some of the best ratios available, but need to be carried. Thus carriers become useful too, and destroyers are needed to temper the fighter swarms. And so the cycle continues. Just because a ship is the best doesn't mean that it doesn't have its usefulness.

Another thing that we can't assume is that our fleet is in a vacuum.

As it has been stated many times before, resources aren't the only limiting factor and raw destruction isn't the only objective.

And finally, we can't assume that our fleet will lose.

Sometimes, our fleet will lose. It happens. But it seems rather hypocritical to say that dreadnoughts only have extreme situational use and then cite a specific situation where dreadnoughts lose.

Additionally, we can't always assume that we are building fleets from the ground up.

Fleets don't just vanish mid-round. If your fleet wins, you still have ships left over. If your fleet was only half-built last round, then you still have to finish building.

Now, let me get to my final counterexample. It should theoretically occur fairly frequently (relative to other hypothetical situations)

Your fleet has just been attacked. Your two carriers survived, but most of the fighters have been destroyed. You need a powerful fleet battle-ready in one round. After you finish rebuilding the fighters, you only have enough space for 2 ships. 2 Destroyers? Maybe. 2 Cruiser? Perhaps. 2 War Suns? Too expensive. 2 Dreadnoughts? Expensive, but makes your fleet extra deadly.

I know that the dreadnoughts are super-expensive compared to the other options. But 2 dreadnoughts gives your fleet room for two other hits, and causes a lot more damage.

And my final point: The fighters can be replaced at very low cost. Dreadnoughts were meant to survive, not to be taken as casualties. A fleet of destroyers will cost twice as much to maintain as a mix of dreadnoughts and fighters, not counting the free hits that dreadnoughts can survive. (In addition, the destroyer fleet demands a higher fleet supply) A fleet of cruisers will cost four times as much to maintain as a mix of dreadnoughts and fighters. Even a mix of cruisers/destroyers and fighters will continue to demand a higher fleet supply than a dreadnought/fighter mix.

I do want to say that although I don't have experience with Twilight Imperium battles, I do have a great deal of experience with Axis and Allies, which has identical battle mechanics to those of TI3. So please don't dismiss my ideas based on a lack of experience.

A Dread is a fine unit once it gets Type IV drive or Assault Cannons.

But until then, you are better off buying all your Cruisiers first before your second Dread.

Your fleet needs to move quickly to block an invasion fleet on your borders and Dreads simply are not fast enough to do that.

Putting at your double Space dock, 4 pds, 2 Dreads and 6 fighters is a good use of Dreads. That is a good defense for your Space docks and leaves enough room to build a fleet.

But trying to build all your Dread units is usually a mistake.

Dreads are usually built for special missions, not general duty.

Some experianced L1Z1x players will build all their Dreads but they have a game plan to get Type IV drive or Assault cannons as early as possible in the game.

For a regular player, 1 Dread for your Admiral is usually all you need in the game, unless you end up with a fistful of Action cards that are meant to be used with Dreads.

Actualy the L1Z1X seem to have the best deal with dreads, if they get sarween tools then a dread is only 3 RP's for them. It's only 4 normally to them and that is only 1 more than a carrier, which let's face apart from carrying troops and fighters until you get Advance fighters isn't much use. With a 9 needed to hit a Dread can drop in and unless the carriers are lucky can kill all three if it's got an admiral aboard, and 2 without before it dies.

That's an absurd statement grounded in a complete lack of appreciation/understanding of other styles of play, personalities, rules, etc. For example, we use a free setup board rather than the pristine geometric design the main rules provide for. Depending on where your race is located, how close you are to others, if you are in a corner, in the middle, etc, speed may not matter at all. Likewise fleet supply could be a MAJOR issue depending on play styles (do people like to build up and be peaceful, which set of startegy cards are you playing with, etc.) Many large fleets could be percieved as a threat vs a single fleet packed w/dreadnoughts ("OMG look at how many ships he has!!!). Perhaps in your location, multiple space docks in multiple areas present a challenge so the limitation on how many units you can build leads you to choose these ships. Maybe your tech choices or racial techs lead you in other directions than WS. Maybe in your group of gamers dreadnoughts are seen as the ultimate in war mongering, etc. Maybe you have the 5 dreadnought objective.

Multi player games are primarily DIPLOMATIC games rather than min-max games. If you are in a group of min-maxers dedicated to building and using the ultimate fleet, you will do fine. Bring your style of play to my group and you will be toast lol.

Are we still debating the usefulness of DNs? I thought this was over long ago?

I say we should just let people build whatever units they want and figure out which ones work best for them. Period!

I have to agree that DN are not worth the 'bang-for-the-buck'. Fighter escorted fleets seem to do far better against DN dependent ones. The arguments that tech-enhanced DN are to hard to obtain seem valid as well. In my group we ALWAYS play with the 2d/2hit DN and the 3d/3h War Suns; with the number of die rolls decreasing as the unit loses health. Example after a DN takes one hit it only rolls 1 die. Now this seems to be an OK way of making up for the DN lack of firepower in relation to its cost, it isn't enough. Now I really hate to see all those gorgeous looking DN left in a plastic bag the entire game, so perhaps one solution would be to beef them up even further? They obviously look like Star Destroyers so why not make them like Star Destroyers and give them their own capacity? Give them their own capacity of 3 to carry fighters, GF's, MI, or PDS's like a carrier or War Sun.They would now make excellent invasion ships, having bombardment and a capacity of their own. Now this would obviously alter the usefulness of Stasis Capsules so modify their capacity after Stasis Capacity obtained to 3+1GF. I haven't tried this solution so any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

Or because 3 is an awkward capacity let a DN's base capacity be 2, modified to 2+2GF with Stasis Capsules. And for the L1z1X Mindet let their Racial Tech 'Dreadnaught Invasion Pods' modify a DN's capacity to either 2+4GF or 4+2GF, although I would lean towards the second.

i've heard the arguement "dreadnoughts are worthless" several times, both in forums and while playing the game. Each time i have to roll my eyes and say,

Yes compared to the recources 5 destroyers(assuming the player has hylar v) and the carrier+fighters have a statisticly greater destructive potential, but they are not always optimal depending on the situation.

-If you cannot afford to keep your fleet supply (in small numbers, they are sitting ducks)

-If Production Capacity keeps you limited (if you need ground units and can only afford 2 capacity, a carrier+Dreadnought might be the best option,Etc, Etc.)

-In addition to the destroyer counter, the carrier and fighters have several action cards and abilities pointed against them(examples: Target Their Flagship, The Creuss racial tech, friendly fire, and any ability that allow your opponent to assign hits, since the carrier(s) would be destroyed and any units within it.)

p.s If you refer to the direct hit as an action card against the dreadnought let me remind you that nano technology grants them an immunity against any action card targeted against them

-If you are playing either the Barony of Letnev , The Colleges of Jol-Nar, Or the L1ZIX Mindnet the dreadnought becomes vastly more viable

Letnev

their racial tech that allows them to sustain damage twice+duranium armour can make them almost indestructable

(example: against 2 cruisers, the dreadnought has a 100% chance of victory)

L1ZiX

In addition to them costing less and getting a + 1 on their combat rolls. they have The "Inheritence Systems" Racial techs allowing them to skip any perequisits for the cost of 2 recources allowing them type IV Drive Fairly quickly.

Jol-Nar

their preference towards the dreadnought i admit is slightly opinionated, but their fast technological advancements allow for them to quickly get several technologies that improve the dreadnought vastly.

you may argue that this pushes them towards the warsun, and that is true, but you can't always push for the 12 recources needed to build them.

Of cource the reverse is true, Under several conditions the dreadnought can become a less than viable option regarding race, the span of the galaxy, the enemy's tactics, your objective etc, etc, etc.

I for one Object to the change of adding an additional dye, i have played it and found the dreadnought being to powerful compared to the recources paid for them.

Before i stop here I would like to state that i don't think the destroyer build is ineffective, on the contrary they can be very deadly when used correctly.

p.s I know several of my arguements have(probably) been previously stated, but i wanted to throw my own cents in the pile. Most of my words stated here are my own opinion and if you don't like it. You will be the first to be executed after my swift installment as Galactic Overlord MUhahahahahahhahhah.

Anything in any game can be underpowered compared to its cost, not just in TI3 but other games too. However I agree with the above, a dreadnought always has a use, it may be overpriced but some techs can make it overpowered without that price. Weighed off and I think I've said this earlier, what if you can't afford a Warsun? Maybe you've got the rough end of it planet wise and one player near you can take a warsun? Sure he gets 3 hits, but for the cost of his sun you can have 2 dreads and a carrier, and if your dread has the admiral you are going to butcher him/her in combat. 3X5 and a 7 to hit, that's a pretty good chance of getting 2 hits which will off his sun. Against at best 4 X3 in retaliation, sure you may lose your dreads, but chances are they'll take a hit each and you lose your cruiser.

Only a fool would ignore that and leave a Warsun unprotected completely against a weaker player with multiple dreads. And lets be honest, you don't know if I have the Direct Hit action card now do you?

Add to that their ability to pound ground forces, and for the cost compared to carriers I really don't think they are particularly overpriced. If you think they are then please tell us what you think the cost should be?