I have a question regarding a line of sight issue that occured while playing Tide of Iron. It was during the Hellfire Pass scenario. One of the British tanks has moved on the road between both flak guns. One of the players interpretation of the line of sight rules is that if there is a change in elevation of 2, the hex next to the first elevation hex is blocked. From what Ive read, the only terrain that blocks line of site are: woods, buildings, and terrain higher than BOTH. There isnt a case of a plateau situation, where there is an interviening hex of the same elevation as the flak gun. The elevation change between both units is 2, where the tank is at 0 and the flak gun is at 2 with a hex at elevation 1 between. Any help clarifying this rule would be appreciated. Thanks

JayT said:

I agree with your interpretation. No hiding at the foot of a hill.

Thank you Klaus for your input. I would also like a designer to chime in on this also. I would be interested to see how the designer feels about this.

Good luck we havent seen the designers of ToI in here for over a year or more

There should be a file available somewhere online with LOS examples. I have it printed out, just don't remember where I got it from.

It's more tricky (and argueably illogical) than you'd think the way LOS works in TOI. Sometimes even lower terrain can be blocking (E.g a building hex in between a level two and a level one hill would block LOS, the same building hex between two hills of the same height would not).

When my friend and I played this scenario, we had the same question. I believe we wound up playing where his tanks were able to hide from my 88's at the base of the hill. It seemed absurd, but the way the rules were written, it sounded like that was a blind hex.

This topic has come up before some time ago, cant remember when.

For most terrian rules that are not logical and that are unclear I have adopted the rules from conflict of heroes as the rules for these terrians are similar but CoH seems to address these sorts of issues and make them logical.

I just sent a rules question to FFG regarding this issue to see what the "offica"l ruling is

Line of sight (different elevations)
There is an example that comes up reguarly in games that is not addressed in this example.
If unit A is on a level 2 hill, the hex in front is a level 1 hill then there is a clear hex infront of that with unit B in it. The question is dose unit A have LOS to unit B? Logically I would say yes as unit A is looking down hill to unit B, but how the rules are explained regarding blocking terrian and blind hexes im starting to fear that logic is missing in this example.

perhaps one sentence such as: A clear hill hex dose not create a blind spot for units firing from higher up along the same hill slope. would clear this up. (as this dose not add any more complexitly to the game but infact removes the confussion)

Just hope I hear something as I still have some rules questions from 6 to 12 months ago that i have not received any answers to.

also the sentence i provided is the one in the CoH rules book used to make firing down hill clear.

I agree that the CoH rules generally make more sense and specifically the LOS rules. However, in FFG's defense I CAN see that a unit hugging the foot of a hill could be out of LOS even from a unit that's higher up. Just picture a building in a valley, for that matter. If you're right behind it, then you wouldn't be seen either. Also, a hill doesn't necessarily have to go straight down/up. There may well be some ondulations, rocks sticking out, ridges etc. on the lower slopes meaning that also in this way LOS could be obscured from a higher point. Then again, yes, I do agree the CoH rules are clearer and seem to make more sense.

With regards to 88s ( and other guns I suppose) they can not depress worth a ****, so it would make kind of sense to hide just below the ridge they are set up upon. ;-)

Hefsgaard said:

Infantry squads are another matter, though.

KlausFritsch said:

That depends. In "Saving private Ryan" you'll see that once the American infantrymen make it to the foot of the cliffs at Omaha, they're relatively safe from enemy fire as opposed to being caught between the shoreline and the foot of the cliffs....

Kingtiger said:

If I remember correctly, they are hunkering down at the vertical base of a bunker, are they not?

Anyway, I can live with both interpretations. I want an "official" ruling, though. Ideally in an advanced rulebook, but I can also live with an FAQ update.

In general, hills in ToI could use a little more "character" anyway.

KlausFritsch said:

absolutely. same goes for roads. hills should provide some cover against units firing from below as well. also miss "forest on hill", "building on hill " etc.

Hi!

According to rule book page 24 you need to check for the closest obstruction to the lowest unit.
According to page 46 hills are blocking terrain.

So you want to shoot from lvl 2 to lvl 0 and between ther is a hill which is according to the rules a blocking terrain.

In my interpretation of the rules the flak can not shoot at the tank on the street because the tank is in a blind hex.

If you shoot from a higher location you got +1 range for this unit. To balance the game there must be an disadvantage for this position, i.e. you can not shoot to the submontane.

Do not try to explain some situation in this game with "reality"! Just play the game according to the rules

A perfect example you will find in the LOS example pdf

Attached you find a link where you could download the LOS example pdf. Normaly this link is valid for the next 5 days, me be it will be deleted after the first download. I dont know.

If some problems with this link please let me know.

http://mbf.me/tREnT

Lynyrd said:

Hmm attacking uphill is a disadvantage (you don't need to be a military expert to know this) , using the rules this way would make attacking uphill an advantage as you can't be seen at the bottom of the hill.

The platue and blocking rules for hills seem to give controdicting ideas in this game to (as if the same lvl hill is next to you, you can't see any hex behind but if it is not next to you it just makes 2 blind hexes, but really its the same effect!)

Lynyrd said:

Would be nice if the rules were modeled off reality then we wouldnt need to try and explain some situations, but I guess you can't expect a fantasy games company to use reality in a historical game.

I have heard on many occations that the rules are the way they are to keep things simple, yet I think the way the rules are make things more confusing. There are other war games of the same complexity as ToI that get these things right.

like I have said in the past with alot of the terrian rules in Toi that don't use common sence I have adopted the rules from conflict of heroes for them as they clear up all confussion and are easy to adapt to ToI

JayT said:

In short: page 24

"Also, when dealing with varying unit elevations, a hill the same level or lower than the unit on the higher elevation is also considered blocking terrain for the purpose of determining blind hexes"