just a few questions questions.

1) if a jack lv3 is in play and i play a parasite cage to take and opponents friend then i play hercules to return the cage to my hand, will the friend attached to cage be discarded because cage was not "defeated"?

2) If i have 2 metal chocobo's in my hand and discard them to play dragon malefecent, will they return to my hand at the end of the action phase because they do not specify how they get discarded or what phase they return it?

3) does metal chocobo have to return to the hand on the phase it was discarded or play in? or can it return at the end of any phase?

4) do cards like chip and dale have to be used on your turn only? i say they do, but my friend argues otherwise because they do not specify...

Please help ASAP....

Last Messiah said:

I'm may not be one of the "All-Knowing Rulers" (hehe) on the forum, but this is supposed to be a discussion, so here's how I see it:

1) That's what it looks like to me. As long as the Jack isn't the one captured, it seems like a fair play.

2 & 3) I'd think that discarding them from hand negates it's "played" status, and logic says that you cannot use the effect of a card that was never played (read that again; I maybe wrong, but it does make sense). Also, I'd think "the phase" is meant to specify the phase you played it, otherwise you could just return it at the end of your next Draw phase and begin your turn with nine cards (w/ Selphie, 10) in hand.

4) Being the friend in question, my opinion on this one will be a little baised. Let me just go on record as saying that if this is ruled against, there are going to be a lot of cards that fall into the "cards like" catagory (including Fairy Godmother and Magic Lamp, just to name a few that I use).

to clearify,

questions 2/3: the card in question does not specify that it has to be played, it just says "you may return this card to your hand at the end on the phase" not after being played or to any other circumstance. that is what is causing the question at hand.

question 4: the reason thisquestion proposes such a delima is that in any other game, the rule book states that there are three types of effects (1, continuous effects like wakka that are permanent, 2, triggered effects that activate in response to others like merlin or yuffie, 3, ignition effects like chip and dale that are not trigger but have the option of being activated) and in every other game in existance these effects are specified to have certain timings they can work upon. and, ignition type effects are usually stated to be players turn only. but, in this game there has not been a rule stated to this fact and is leaving me and my friend gaston to question this timing.

2) Metal Chocobo does not say where it activates FROM either. Not to get philosophical, but its effect cannot activate if the card doesn't exist and, for purposes of "playing" a card, your hand doesn't exist; put another way, unless a card I don't know says differently, you cannot use the effect of a card in your hand. You can play it from your hand, but it doesn't start working until it hits play. The discard pile is also not "in play," and while some cards activate on their way TO the discard pile, nothing activates IN it. Therefore, if a card goes from your hand to the discard pile, it hasn't been played, therefore it effectively doesn't have an effect; like discarding Leon from hand. However, I will wait for the final ruling on that one.

P.S. I did find somewhere else on the forum where it says that the card returns to your hand at the end of the phase it's played, but that's all it said (who knew the Comprehensive Guide actually WAS useful, jk).

4) It is partially because of this lack of a ruling that I drew this conclusion from. So far this game has also avoided the "cost" discussion that occurs in every other TCG on the planet, and I sure don't want to start now.

Will someone who knows what they're talking about please stop Craig and I from fighting anymore ; P

i agree entirely about the "cost issue" as well, but that is another topic all together.

again though, i find myself confounded to borrow ruling and effect from other cards games. magic and yugi have numerous examples of cards that specifically activate from the grave without ever being played or in play, so your logic holds flaws yet at the same time you are right in the fact that this is not those games. Nevertheless, the same principles to those cards in other games could and should apply to that of chocobo because of the way it is worded. (examples: treeborn frog and phoenix blade in yugi and the dredge ability in magic)

and i do agree that if the card is played it should only return in the phase it was used. so i would rule that question is null but i am asking for security of mind on that one.

so i ask again, CAN ANYBODY CLEAR THIS UP!

sorry, i would like to strike the questions 2 and 3 from this series after reviewing hte comprehensive section, but only if you can confirm this next statement:

Metal chocobo's effect only prevents it from being discard after being used and not that it returns it from discard when used.

am i correct in saying that?

and i am still confused on question 4 with the timing of chip and Dale.

Unfortunately, the "cost" issue is undeniably connected. When/If it is determined that cards like "Chip & Dale" require it to be your turn to activate their effect, their removal becomes a cost associated with the player's turn (btw, Mushu WILL complicate the problem futher); after that, other cards (e.g. Merlin) will become associated with the "Trigger" printed on them, instead of simply being an effect. Then we will slowly slip into the realms of "Response" cards, then the game will get REALLY complicated.

Also, in the examples given, each of those cards must say that they include the Graveyard (at least they did 3 years ago when I played yugi). No Kingdom Hearts card that has been released in America to date activates FROM the discard pile.

To the other people who don't want to choose a side: Hurry up and tell us! At least then we could stop this "back-and-forth, but still don't know" crap. (I wonder if the people who watch the forums take the weekends off...)

Last Messiah said:

All of these are answered in the Rules and Regulations thread, nontheless,

1) The Friend is discarded
2) Metal Chocobo has to return to your hand at the end of the phase of which it was discarded
4) You can only activate Chip during your turn.

i am not sure if they are taken the day off or they just enjoy the show we are putting on for them.

Either way, you continue to point out valid facts, but i believe i would agree with you and many others out there that they need to specify the exact application and timing of effects and to what they apply to. this game is fun and i would hate to see it lose players due to misunderstandings and misconduct between players over rulings.

i support either outcome of the decision as long as there is a "final" decision made to end this hastle. although i must admit you are one of the few i do enjoy arguing with. it also helps that you are a good friend and i understand where you are coming from on your comprehension of the effect and to your advantage i actually hope you are right due to the fact that it would make the game a whole lot more interesting and i would willingly start to run chip and dale if they get ruled if your favor.

P.s. good game yesterday. i enjoyed the prolonged since of war between rivals as you put up one of the greatest fights i haver ever enjoyed in this game. i hope we continue to progress in this way because i hold a strong belief that you can only grow stronger by playing stronger opponents to which we each each other stronger. and it only helps that friends push each other to the top in such a manor.

P.s.s. i feel that i just might try running only 1 chocobo anyway due to it being much like a wakka in the re-usable since, and provides just that little extra power when trying to overcome that sephiroth of yours.

Roxas said:

so, i hate to reiterate, does that mean that even if chocobo is sent to the discard pile by another effect, you can return it to your hand?

Last Messiah said:

Yes, please check the Comprehensive Rules and Rulings (or the search feature) before posting. All of these have been answered there.

sorry, i didn't see it in the comprehensive section and i didn't even know we had a search option here....

My bad....... ^.^';

Okay, found it in the Comprehensive rules; I didn't see it before either.

As I previously stated, this does complicate Mushu a little bit. Example: you play him during a challenge on your opponents turn; the loss of HP to increase his support value appearse to be one of those effects that can only be activated on your turn due to the lack of a condisioning statement.

Q: Can you activate Mushu's effect during your opponent's turn?

I do not believe so, mainly because of the wording on Dumbo. Mushu says you may, implying that you have to activate his effect seperate from his "summon", while Dumbo just starts off with All Heartless, implying that his effect starts the minute he hit the board.

A: Mushu's effect can not be activated on your opponents turn.

... and that, my friend, is how a weak card CAN become weaker.